Ejector Pump Box with Air Admittance Valve (LONG)

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Cass

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ak199...you came and asked about a problem you are having...you have had several plumbers from around the country give you the correct answer...you can now take the info and do the job wrong or right,...your option, but if you choose to do it wrong then why would you bother coming here and waisting our time and yours you should have just done it wrong and continued to have something that is going to cause you, or the next person that buys the home, problems that will pale in comparison to what you have now...
 

hj

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basin

How many times and how many ways do we have to tell you that a sanitary system into a sealed basin is a "closed" system. It is full of air, and if you try to add a cup of water to it, then a cup of air has to be elimnated somehow. Otherwise the cup of water will not drain, (forget about air being compressible and thus letting the water in). An AAV is like a "roach motel", it lets air in but does not let it out. Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur. If you are determined to do it your way, and are just looking for affirmation, then go ahead, because there is no way to stop you. And it does not affect us in the slightest.
 

Master Brian

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How many times and how many ways do we have to tell you that a sanitary system into a sealed basin is a "closed" system. It is full of air, and if you try to add a cup of water to it, then a cup of air has to be elimnated somehow. Otherwise the cup of water will not drain, (forget about air being compressible and thus letting the water in). An AAV is like a "roach motel", it lets air in but does not let it out. Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur. If you are determined to do it your way, and are just looking for affirmation, then go ahead, because there is no way to stop you. And it does not affect us in the slightest.


HJ, you clearified the problem to me. Thanks! I was curious about this thread, because I am installing my own ejector pit and all that is left is the vent out the roof. Even though I am planning on running my vent out the roof, I was intrigued by this guys AAV "solution".
 

ak199

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I just want to make one thing clear, I came here to get an explanation of an engineering design devised by STUDOR (not me!) for an ejector pit pump.

The first "experienced plumber" to reply didn't even bother to look at the design, and from what HJ is saying, neither did he. Obviously, none of you are interested in understanding something new to you, so you just dismiss it as a "hack", or that it won't "pass code", when there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WILL NOT WORK, OR THAT IT WILL NOT PASS CODE.

This is how the design actually works (for those of you who care):

(1) AIR COMES IN through the ONE WAY AAV valve into the sealed pump box.
(2) AIR EXITS the sealed pump box via the wet vent loop in the discharge line, which eventually connects to the main stack.

For everyone's information, STUDOR'S EJECTOR PUMP AAV DESIGN is working great in my laundry. The sink drains fast as hell and there are no smells or "weird drainage" going on.

I am sure the first AAV designs back in the 70's were met with the same closed-minded, dismissive and arrogant attitude's you all seem to be expressing now. Innovation happens and things change. Get over it. For those of you who didn't give me attitude for trying to understand something new, thanks for reading.

PS: Here is another thread on a board regarding Studors ejector pump AAV design, how it works, and how it is ACCEPTABLE under IRC Code:
http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?p=48370#post48370

Try learning something new... it's free.

-A
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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NHmaster

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I know, I know, it's accepted by ....... Yadda Yadda. Throw enough money at some idiot and you can get just about anything accepted these days. So that aside, let's stop bitchin and take a look at the schematic from Studor. Basically it's a loop vent running back into the horizontal waste with the admittance valve on the riser. Since the pump will be pushing a volume of air in front of the poo when it operates, this column of air will be pushed partly ahead of the poo, down the waste pipe and part of the air will be returned to the tank. At this cycle the AAV is doing absolutly nothing since it only lets air in, not out. So what happens during the off cycle when waste is filling the tank? Essentially the loop vent is allowing the pressure built up in the tank to be vented down the waste line. All of which could be accomplished without adding the AAV which really serves no purpose at all. I have actually seen quite a few ejector pumps piped that way (that is without the aav) and they worked fine.
 

Redwood

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Therefore, without an atmospheric vent to let air out, the drainage of the system will either not happen, or will be severly compromised. All the "workarounds" will work when things are working properly, but have SEVERE liabilities when the inevitable problems do occur.

Listen up Poindexter...

I believe this covers what you are talking about doing!

Like we all have said quit talking about it and just go ahead and do it!
We don't care if your plumbing works or, not!
We have led you to the waters of knowledge and you refuse to drink!
Keep on being thirsty...
We have drank our fill and now we will lead others to the waters of knowledge so that they may quench their thirst...
I believe others may be wiser!

nike.jpg
 
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SewerRatz

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I just want to make one thing clear, I came here to get an explanation of an engineering design devised by STUDOR (not me!) for an ejector pit pump.

The first "experienced plumber" to reply didn't even bother to look at the design, and from what HJ is saying, neither did he. Obviously, none of you are interested in understanding something new to you, so you just dismiss it as a "hack", or that it won't "pass code", when there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WILL NOT WORK, OR THAT IT WILL NOT PASS CODE.

This is how the design actually works (for those of you who care):

(1) AIR COMES IN through the ONE WAY AAV valve into the sealed pump box.
(2) AIR EXITS the sealed pump box via the wet vent loop in the discharge line, which eventually connects to the main stack.

For everyone's information, STUDOR'S EJECTOR PUMP AAV DESIGN is working great in my laundry. The sink drains fast as hell and there are no smells or "weird drainage" going on.

I am sure the first AAV designs back in the 70's were met with the same closed-minded, dismissive and arrogant attitude's you all seem to be expressing now. Innovation happens and things change. Get over it. For those of you who didn't give me attitude for trying to understand something new, thanks for reading.

PS: Here is another thread on a board regarding Studors ejector pump AAV design, how it works, and how it is ACCEPTABLE under IRC Code:
http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?p=48370#post48370

Try learning something new... it's free.

-A

Illinois does not allow AAV,s mechanical vents or any other device you can think of. They can and will fail. Here is two parts in the Illinois code that will show you they are not allowed at all in the state of Illinois. Colored Bold is added by me.

Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents



a) Trap Vent. No trap vent shall be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir. (See Appendix K: Illustration N.)



b) Common Vent. A common vent, installed vertically, may be used for two fixture traps when both traps connect with a vertical waste at the same level. (See Appendix K: Illustration O.)



c) Vertical Wet Vent. A vertical wet vent may be used for two fixtures set on the same floor level, but connecting at different levels in the stack, provided the vertical drain is one (1) pipe diameter larger than the upper fixture drain and that both drains conform to Appendix A: Table I. (See Appendix K: Illustrations P and Q.)



d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.


Section 890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents



a) Design. A properly designed and installed venting system, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure. The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal. (See Section 890.410(f).)



b) Installation. A stack vent, vent stack or a main vent shall be installed with a soil or waste stack whenever back vents, relief vents, or other branch vents are required. (See Appendix K: Illustration A.)



c) Terminal. Vents shall terminate independently above the roof to the outside atmosphere, or shall be connected to another vent at least six (6) inches above the flood-level rim of the highest fixture. (See Appendix K: Illustration B.)



d) Main Stack. Each building in which plumbing is installed shall have at least one main vent stack no smaller than three (3) inches for each building drain installed. (See Appendix A: Table K, and Appendix K: Illustration C.)



e) Building Sub-drain Sump Vent Sizes. Building sub-drain sump vents shall be sized in accordance with Appendix A: Table K.​

Go to Studer's web site they will tell you which state allows their AAV's Lots of them have special circumstances that need to be met before you use one. I have seen many of these AAV's installed illegally (just because the hardware store sells it does not make it legal) and I seen many of the cause problems with trap seals being broken due to positive pressure in the system, also seen a few that got stuck in the shut position so it never admitted air like it was designed to do, and people thought they had a clogged drain till I removed the AAV.

These mechanical vents are a handy mans solution to things. If you want to protect the health of your family and your community do it right or call a plumber to do it right.
 

ak199

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These mechanical vents are a handy mans solution to things. If you want to protect the health of your family and your community do it right or call a plumber to do it right.

It is "Right". Maybe you don't agree with it, but the IRC allows AAV's and so does 45 other states in the nation. Sorry you live in the minority where it's considered "wrong". I don't live in Illinois.
 

Kingsotall

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Ultimately comes down to jurisdiction having authority. If they say,"Ain't no good" then you don't have the convenience of rattling off a message in essence that says "Na na na na booboo, like what I can do." But then again we're talking legitimite plumbing in the real world that gets inspected.
 

Cass

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It is "Right". Maybe you don't agree with it, but the IRC allows AAV's and so does 45 other states in the nation. Sorry you live in the minority where it's considered "wrong". I don't live in Illinois.

Bring the Studor Vent drawing to your local inspection office and ask them to approve it for use in your home...
 

Master Brian

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I really don't want to get in the middle of this, because I will admit, I am/was curious as to whether or not it would work.

With that said, I'm not sure why you are still here taking this beating! You seem to have the answers as to how it works, which is what you say you wanted to know. So I question are you really trying to figure out how it works or change the plumbers minds?

If you are trying to change their minds, give up. I actually respect these plumbers for saying, hey we don't believe in it, we aren't going to sell it! Especially after taking a 4hour continuing ed ethics course last night for my profession. They in my opinion are showing an ethical stand, that says hey, we don't believe it's right, so we can't/won't recommend it. Why sit there and argue with them about it. I wish more people had that stand!
 

SewerRatz

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Bring the Studor Vent drawing to your local inspection office and ask them to approve it for use in your home...

Yes, have your local plumbing inspector , inspect your installation. Lets see if it gets approved. Awesome point there Cass.

I was digging through a bunch of old books I have, came across a plumbing code book from 1917 for the state of Ohio. I just wanted to share the first few paragraphs with you all.

Plumbing
Definition
Plumbing is the art of installing in buildings the pipes, fixtures and other apparatus for introducing the water supply and removing liquid and water-carried wastes. It must be installed in accordance with scientific principles and natural laws.​

Relation to Health
The value of plumbing to public health is important because it removes human wastes from the immediate neighborhood of buildings. Plumbing also furnishes the opportunity for liberal consumption and use of pure wholesome water for drinking, bathing, culinary and other domestic purposes.​

Inferior Stops, Valves and Fixtures
A cheap grade of stop and waste cocks, valves and fixtures often used in the installation is a false economy and expensive practice. inconvenience, annoyance, waste of water and continual repairs are the resulting penalties from this practice.​

Low First Cost Mistaken Economy
A second class plumbing and drainage system in cost will prove itself a second class system. A year or so in service will reveal the inefficiency of the fixture, device or construction. Discomfort, inconvenience, cost of repairs, foul odors, insanitary and unhealthful conditions are the resulting penalties which the unfortunate occupant must pay.​
 

SewerRatz

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(1) AIR COMES IN through the ONE WAY AAV valve into the sealed pump box.
(2) AIR EXITS the sealed pump box via the wet vent loop in the discharge line, which eventually connects to the main stack.

If I recall you are not allowed to wet vent a ejector pump system. I will have to run to my truck and grab my code books.
 

ak199

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If I recall you are not allowed to wet vent a ejector pump system. I will have to run to my truck and grab my code books.

Grab all you like, because you're dead wrong. Here is the text of the post on the other forum by the IRC inspector:

>The air can escape by way of the waste line into the sewer ejector.
>
>In other words by a code approved 'wet vent'.
>
>IRC 2003 P3113.4.1 states:

>"Drainage piping below sewer level shall be vented in a similar manner to that of a gravity system."

>IRC 2003 in P3114.3 further states regarding air admittance valves:
>
>"Indvidual vents, branch vents and stack vents shall be permitted to >terminate with a connection to an air admittance valve."

>This includes sewage pumps and sewage ejectors other than pneumatic >types.

Bring the Studor Vent drawing to your local inspection office and ask them to approve it for use in your home...

Might do that. They're legal here.
 

NHmaster

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Grab all you like, because you're dead wrong. Here is the text of the post on the other forum by the IRC inspector:

>The air can escape by way of the waste line into the sewer ejector.
>
>In other words by a code approved 'wet vent'.
>
>IRC 2003 P3113.4.1 states:

>"Drainage piping below sewer level shall be vented in a similar manner to that of a gravity system."

>IRC 2003 in P3114.3 further states regarding air admittance valves:
>
>"Indvidual vents, branch vents and stack vents shall be permitted to >terminate with a connection to an air admittance valve."

>This includes sewage pumps and sewage ejectors other than pneumatic >types.



Might do that. They're legal here.


The code books are full of things that are legal. That does not make them right. Many things get overlooked or becuse someone at the review board had their hand out it got accepted. I explained how the loop vent is working. It doesn't take a genious to figure it out. It does clearly show that there is no true vent on the ejector system and in fact the studor vent is a total waste of time because it never does anything at all. Basically you are using the air space in the sewer main to vent the tank. As for your continual assertion and posting of the code pertaining to wet venting, only bathroom groups are allowed to be wet vented. Here's another bit of code that Individual and branch type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4" above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented.
 

ak199

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in fact the studor vent is a total waste of time because it never does anything at all.

Oh really? Then why does the AAV hiss after the tank has been emptied? Is that my imagination?

only bathroom groups are allowed to be wet vented.

Not so. See figure P3109.2 of the IRC code, depicting a Laundry tub under "Wet Stack Venting".

Here's another bit of code that Individual and branch type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4" above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented.

My AAV is 6 FEET above the sink.

Got anything else? :)
 

Sedin26

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I read the forums daily, though I haven't actually bothered logging in with my username for about half a year, as I don't generally post. I thought it would be worth it to comment on this, though.

I hope your setup works - it very well may work well for an extended period of time. Though I would not do it the way you have and I would definitely have my work inspected to make sure it was done properly, I don't begrudge you your freedom to set this up any way you want, as it appears that any failure would only affect you.

Every month or so a poster comes in and asks a question, hoping to confirm that the hack job way they want to do something will work. When they are told by several licensed and experienced plumbers that it is not a good idea, they either do not post again or they get mad and make snarky and immature posts.

You, I'm afraid, are the worst of the lot.

I pity anyone who has to actually deal with you in person.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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Oh really? Then why does the AAV hiss after the tank has been emptied? Is that my imagination?



Not so. See figure P3109.2 of the IRC code, depicting a Laundry tub under "Wet Stack Venting".



My AAV is 6 FEET above the sink.

Got anything else? :)



LEAVE.


This post here was so telling of your demeanor that it was almost expected that moderators and licensed plumbers wouldn't get through your thick skull the reasons why you can't use that device.


I know some normal people in Jersey and you're not normal. You've been given extremely helpful advice, you've ignored every single bit of it no matter what you find in your little pdf's. Kentucky is governed by NPC, same as New Jersey.


I can see why they send idiots to you, you deserve it with your attitude.


Quit wasting everyone's time here and put your plumbing in any way you want, I don't care if you die years later because that studor vent took on an excessive amount of activity and the mechanical part breaks, allowing sewer gases to enter the structure because you're too god damn cheap to do it right. $30 and it's done is your distorted mentality so I'll be the first master plumber on here to grant you full permission to do anything you want.

I applaud the Plumbers in New Jersey for not dealing with your unbelievable ignorance when it comes to plumbing. You probably do a lot of other "wrong" things in your personal life and this cry for help on the internet isn't helping your objective to seek information.

I've helped tons of people on the internet, but people like you deserve every hardship coming your way. There's no reward in dealing with the likes of you.

The audience here will agree, LEAVE.
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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I read the forums daily, though I haven't actually bothered logging in with my username for about half a year, as I don't generally post. I thought it would be worth it to comment on this, though.

I hope your setup works - it very well may work well for an extended period of time. Though I would not do it the way you have and I would definitely have my work inspected to make sure it was done properly, I don't begrudge you your freedom to set this up any way you want, as it appears that any failure would only affect you.

Every month or so a poster comes in and asks a question, hoping to confirm that the hack job way they want to do something will work. When they are told by several licensed and experienced plumbers that it is not a good idea, they either do not post again or they get mad and make snarky and immature posts.

You, I'm afraid, are the worst of the lot.

I pity anyone who has to actually deal with you in person.





Awesome post sedin26.
 
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