(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 118

Thread: Tankless info from consumer reports, Tankless...Bahhhhh

  1. #61
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    175

    Default

    In my effort to help keep beating this dead horse, here is a chart comparing different types of water heaters and estimate costs.
    http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm#lcc

    Do the installed costs line up?

  2. #62
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH View Post
    In my effort to help keep beating this dead horse, here is a chart comparing different types of water heaters and estimate costs.
    http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm#lcc

    Do the installed costs line up?

    Oh that's beautifull Carl. Thank you. Though I have a feeling you are preaching to the choir. So about 30 bucks a year savings over a conventional tank heater. Sounds about right to me.

  3. #63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH View Post
    In my effort to help keep beating this dead horse, here is a chart comparing different types of water heaters and estimate costs.
    http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm#lcc

    Do the installed costs line up?
    Good press numbers! Some will disagree with install figures. Your price may vary by region and plumber comfort with new technology.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  4. #64
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    175

    Default

    I've done some reading and my guess is that the installed cost is for new construction. Changing out a tank heater for a tankless can get much more costly for some. I was looking at the Rinnai tankless to see what it needs for an install. The fact that it is a direct vent is problem for me since it cannot use my existing flue and I cannot change out my existing flue since it is used by my furnace. This means that I would have to find a way add a new vent for this heater. This is where it gets ugly and would probably get expensive. The desired location of the heater puts it in a location where there are too many other things in the way to install a vent for the tankless. If I go with a different manufacturer that has a b-vent tankless, I run into a different problem. My current vent is inadequate and probably half the size that is required to run my furnace and a tankless. Then the question is whether or not I have room in the existing cavities for a larger vent. Also, a b-vent tankless is less efficient at a .70 EF.

    I've been keeping my eye on the comments regarding tankless heaters and until now did not look too deep into what it would take for me to convert to a tankless. I now think that a tankless would not be a good fit for me. I should also add that my water is moderately hard at 130ppm and scale build up might be a problem for me that would require more frequent cleaning than once a year.

    I'm all for being green, especially when it helps keep the green in my wallet. Converting to a tankless would not be cost effective for me though.

  5. #65

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH View Post
    In my effort to help keep beating this dead horse, here is a chart comparing different types of water heaters and estimate costs.
    http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm#lcc

    Do the installed costs line up?


    You have to install a new vent if you go with what they recommend for a tank type of water heater. Same type of vent problem as the tankless heaters.

    ---------------

    Storage Water Heaters

    These are by far the most common type of water heater in the U.S. today. Ranging in size from 20 to 80 gallons (or larger) and fueled by electricity, natural gas, propane, or oil, storage water heaters transfer heat from a burner or coil to water in an insulated tank. Because heat is lost through the flue (except in electric models) and through the walls of the storage tank, energy is consumed even when no hot water is being used.

    New energy-efficient gas-fired storage water heaters are a good, cost-effective replacement option for your current water heater if you have a gas line in your house. They have higher levels of insulation around the tank and one-way valves where pipes connect to the tank, substantially reducing standby heat loss. Keep an eye out for the price to come down for newer super-efficient "condensing" and "near-condensing" gas water heaters, which save much more energy compared to traditional models but are currently niche products. For safety as well as energy efficiency, fuel-burning water heaters should be installed with sealed combustion ("direct-vented" or "power-vented). Sealed combustion means that outside air is brought in directly to the water heater and exhaust gases are vented directly outside, keeping combustion totally separate from the house air.

  6. #66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    Oh that's beautifull Carl. Thank you. Though I have a feeling you are preaching to the choir. So about 30 bucks a year savings over a conventional tank heater. Sounds about right to me.


    Good all around summary of various water heating methods. Note that they did not consider actual lifespan in their calculations.


    --------------------


    4. Currently, there is too little data to accurately estimate life expectancy for tankless water heaters, but priliminary data shows that tankless water heaters could last up to 20 years. For all water heaters, life expectancy will depend on local variables suck as water chemistry and homeowner maintenance.

  7. #67
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    You have to install a new vent if you go with what they recommend for a tank type of water heater. Same type of vent problem as the tankless heaters.
    Correct. No power vent, direct vent, or condensing water heaters for me. I'm looking at a conventional gas storage with a .62 EF. My current water heater rated at .55 EF and has given me nearly 15 years of trouble free service, including extended power outages.

    I think it would be great if a tankless were a more viable option, but it is not an economical option for me. It would have been nice to get a bit more space and lower gas bills.

  8. #68
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    I don't see anything in the newer models to suggest that they will last any longer than the Aquastar and Paloma Pak units. Most of them made it around 10 years.

  9. #69
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    01609
    Posts
    2,715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    I don't see anything in the newer models to suggest that they will last any longer than the Aquastar and Paloma Pak units. Most of them made it around 10 years.
    And you determined that by...










    ... market survey???

    I know of two E.L.M. Aquastar (pre-Bosch takeover) that are still in service with 15+ years on 'em. Don't know of any that out & out died or needed a heat exchanger swap, but it's a pretty small sample size (and only one can I claim the installation on.) They're somewhat finicky PITA units with mechanical feedback that doesn't really modulate well, with a propensity for overheating then self-extinguishing at low flow, but they just won't die (as much as the current owner of one wishes it would. :-) ) I think of them as "reliably finicky". :-) Maybe I live/work in an area with fewer water-harness issues or something(?).

    But the newer versions have both much higher efficiency and higher complexity. Their true track record is still being made, but the Rinnais & Takagis I've encounterd over the past 5 years all seem to be in good shape and running without problems. (I understand that some people have run into issues with Takagi flame-detectors, but I've yet to see it in person- perhaps I will some day...) Again- a relatively small sample-size.

    I've yet to encounter anybody who replaced their tankless with a tank (except a few of instances where they were upgrading heating system boilers and went with an indirect-fired tank, which is the best of both worlds IMHO.) Have you?

    I've read of people who had been using them as hydronic boilers trading up for mod-cons though.

    They may not be for everyone, may not be cost-effective in low-cost fuel markets, but people don't seem to trade 'em in, and live with 'em despite their quirks. Hard-core greenies seem enamored of the operational efficiency, but that wouldn't describe the average tankless owner in my neck of the woods.

  10. #70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    And you determined that by...










    ... market survey???

    I know of two E.L.M. Aquastar (pre-Bosch takeover) that are still in service with 15+ years on 'em. Don't know of any that out & out died or needed a heat exchanger swap, but it's a pretty small sample size (and only one can I claim the installation on.) They're somewhat finicky PITA units with mechanical feedback that doesn't really modulate well, with a propensity for overheating then self-extinguishing at low flow, but they just won't die (as much as the current owner of one wishes it would. :-) ) I think of them as "reliably finicky". :-) Maybe I live/work in an area with fewer water-harness issues or something(?).

    Market survey? He don't need to do no stinkin market survey.

    I have the second build of the ELM Aquastar 125 VP. The mechanical feedback modulates well if you calibrate it properly and set the water temperature to about 125 degrees. You have to make sure that low BTU is indeed low. My unit was calibrated a bit on the high side.

    All the important parts are still available on line for repair purposes, so who knows how long it will last. Then again, I am not sure if a plumber can handle a simple repair job without a song and a dance about something!

  11. #71
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    I guess I base it on the pile of dead ones that I keep upstairs in the shop so we can rob parts off them for the few that did make it past 10 years. I spose I could take a walk up there and count but I know it's better than 25 and if I add in Paloma Paks its probably in the 35 to 40 range.

    Do you think we just make this stuff up for the fun of it.? we are in business to SELL products and make money. If a product is viable and we can make money on it then we gladly sell it.

  12. #72
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of the brave....
    Posts
    4,243
    Blog Entries
    1

    Talking new tankless info from consumer reports

    I hate to say ...... I told you so....



    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/a...heaters-ov.htm

  13. #73
    Journeyman/Inspector Inspektor Ludwig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    In the good ol' UPC
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Lmao,

    Anything that has more than a 3-5 year payback on a house is not worth it! Going green may be a good idea but until it becomes affordable, it doesn't make sense. Thanks for proving what I've been trying to tell people all this time!

  14. #74
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    It's not "new" though...it's over a year old.

  15. #75
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspektor Ludwig View Post
    Anything that has more than a 3-5 year payback on a house is not worth it! Going green may be a good idea but until it becomes affordable, it doesn't make sense. Thanks for proving what I've been trying to tell people all this time!
    I would love to hear where you are putting your money then, if you scoff at anything making less than 20-33% per year. While I'm not a fan of tankless I would set the minimum return a lot lower than that.

Similar Threads

  1. Consumer Reports Recommended toilet, Gerber DF-21-318 a big Flop!
    By Terry in forum Toilet Forum discussions
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 05-07-2013, 07:04 PM
  2. new tankless info from consumer reports
    By master plumber mark in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 11-23-2009, 04:24 AM
  3. Can we believe Consumer Reports?
    By geepondy in forum Toilet Forum discussions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-11-2007, 07:27 AM
  4. Eljer Aqua-Saver Consumer Reports best buy
    By jmcdev1 in forum Toilet Forum discussions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-30-2005, 02:31 PM
  5. Confused about TOTO and Consumer Reports
    By livingaboard in forum Toilet Forum discussions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-19-2005, 12:29 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •