(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 220

Thread: Navien Tankless Water Heater Comments and questions

  1. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post

    An indirect will cost slightly less than a tankless, never run out of hot water and operate at a much lower cost. However it's only an option if you have a boiler. If not stick with a tank type water heater.

    You also don't need to have an indirect tank, a tankless water heater, or a tank type water heater if you have a boiler. The boilers that I am familiar with (limited) are in effect tankless water heaters that have a small heated tank located inside the unit.

    A couple of thousand for an indirect tank could be considered to be a waste of money.


    By the way, I have nothing against a standard tank type water heater. I needed the floor space, so I used a tankless. I now have a direct vent gas fireplace taking up part of the floor space where that old water heater was located. I needed to heat my home theater room that I located in the basement, and the gas fireplace was a nice way to provide heat for that zone. The gas fireplace also keeps me away from problems caused by HVAC contractors!

  2. #17
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    You also don't need to have an indirect tank, a tankless water heater, or a tank type water heater if you have a boiler. The boilers that I am familiar with (limited) are in effect tankless water heaters that have a small heated tank located inside the unit.
    A couple of thousand for an indirect tank could be considered to be a waste of money.


    By the way, I have nothing against a standard tank type water heater. I needed the floor space, so I used a tankless. I now have a direct vent gas fireplace taking up part of the floor space where that old water heater was located. I needed to heat my home theater room that I located in the basement, and the gas fireplace was a nice way to provide heat for that zone. The gas fireplace also keeps me away from problems caused by HVAC contractors!

    The tankless coil is very very inefficient as it requires the boiler to maintain at least 160 degrees year round.

  3. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    sorry, I didn't catch that part. But going through your pas posts I really couldn't find a compelling reason other than the great price you got on the unit. That is in itself reason for question since even with my discount I can't buy one for that. Aside from that though, How far did you have to run the stainless steel vent pipe up through the roof because that stuff ain't cheap either. Oh and while we are at it, did you check the maximum allowable length of the vertical vent pipe. Because those darned things can and will condensate on long runs, especially if the pipe passes through a cold attic. probably nothing to worry about though.

    Maybe it seems like I and others are dissing you or having sport with you and nothing could be further from the truth. What we are trying do do is educate a public that has been hypnotized into buying this line of efficiency and economy that just flat does not exist. The math is the math. People lie. Numbers do not. So other than the one in a lifetime price you got on the unit, and your ability to self install it (and btw I looked at your pictures and you did a nice job there) why would anyone consider installing one of these. Please don't give us the line about a tank type running all day long when you are not hoem because they don't. If they did the operational cost differential would be much greater than it is, and that runs about 4% normally. 4% projected over 10 or 20 years does not make up for the cost and service.
    Educating the public is fine and I commend you for taking time to do so. But keep in mind, what does not work in New England may work just fine south of the Mason-Dixon line (ie, Texas). Condensation of the exhaust flue, low inlet water temp, large demand, etc all must be taken into account before recommending a hot water system. Some quality tankless systems take this and other issues into account. Rinnia for example has a kit for collecting flue condensation when the vertical run is more than 6 feet or so. My vertical run was less than 5 feet and no issue. Limited floor space for more than one waterheater and a family of 6 is what caused me to consider a "quality" tankless water heater. The $5 per month savings on my gas bill was not the reason as I NEVER looked at getting my money back on the system.

    One other note, I really liked the vent system for the Rinnia. It is an outer 5.5" pvc pipe for combustion air intake with an inner 3" steel exhaust flue. Easy to cut and work with. Cost more than "B" vent but possibly more long lasting and doesn't take combustion air from garage in my case

    BTW, My boys and I made the pilgrimage to Mecca and saw the Red Sox play last year at Fenway!
    Last edited by gregsauls; 01-19-2009 at 08:15 AM.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  4. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    The tankless coil is very very inefficient as it requires the boiler to maintain at least 160 degrees year round.

    What's the payback period for the indirect, 20, 30 or 40 years?


    Seems like indirect systems have their own set of problems.

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26048

  5. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post

    Educating the public is fine and I commend you for taking time to do so. But keep in mind, what does not work in New England may work just fine south of the Mason-Dixon line (ie, Texas). Condensation of the exhaust flue, low inlet water temp, large demand, etc all must be taken into account before recommending a hot water system.


    I live in MA, and a tankless works fine in my single family home here even with water coming in at 40 degrees. Just stay within the flow rate of the heater and you will never have the problem of running out of hot water.

    If you "need" to run three shower heads at the same time when you shower (AKA large demand), then a tankless is probably not a good idea anywhere.

    I am not sure if the electric version of a whole house tankless is a good idea. From what I have read, some utilities prohibit their use due to excessive short term demands on the power grid.

  6. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 View Post
    If you "need" to run three shower heads at the same time when you shower (AKA large demand), then a tankless is probably not a good idea anywhere.

    Interesting you bring this up... A couple of the upper end tankless units have a communication cable option so up to three units can be paralleled together so they can "talk" to each other and provide a greater flow rate. We are about to install just such a parallel set up at a Boy Scout camp here to supply 6 showers and ditch the 50 gal electric water heaters in favor of propane. Being on the camp inspection cmty, getting those once a year maintenance descalling done will not be an issue!
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  7. #22
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    Interesting you bring this up... A couple of the upper end tankless units have a communication cable option so up to three units can be paralleled together so they can "talk" to each other and provide a greater flow rate. We are about to install just such a parallel set up at a Boy Scout camp here to supply 6 showers and ditch the 50 gal electric water heaters in favor of propane. Being on the camp inspection cmty, getting those once a year maintenance descalling done will not be an issue!
    And pray tell what was the cost of that compared to th one 50 gallon tank?. Do you guy's really ever sit down and run the numbers?

    What does 2 Rinnai's, the installation materials, the electronics to "talk" to each other plus installation cost with nothing donated or discounted ?

    If you were getting a price from me it would be in the 5 grand range.

    And the cost of a 50 gallon electric? Around 300 bucks for the takn and maybe another 250 to put it in.

    So $550.00 against $ 5,000.00.

    And once again the payoff is --- Drumroll please

    NEVER

  8. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhmaster View Post
    And pray tell what was the cost of that compared to th one 50 gallon tank?. Do you guy's really ever sit down and run the numbers?

    What does 2 Rinnai's, the installation materials, the electronics to "talk" to each other plus installation cost with nothing donated or discounted ?

    If you were getting a price from me it would be in the 5 grand range.

    And the cost of a 50 gallon electric? Around 300 bucks for the takn and maybe another 250 to put it in.

    So $550.00 against $ 5,000.00.

    And once again the payoff is --- Drumroll please

    NEVER
    You just don't get it and probably never will. Keep in mind "our" plumbing supply connection at cost. So, cost to the camp for two units will be about $2k total (free install by pro-plumbers already lined up) and we get unlimited hot water. Get this, UNLIMITED HOT WATER for our campers. Something the current system can't offer. Six showers in use by two hundred campers at Winter Camp 3 weeks ago showed we had to change something when we couldn't keep up with hot water demand. Please note,I never said cost benefit, savings, ROI, nada!


    UNLIMITED HOT WATER
    Last edited by gregsauls; 01-19-2009 at 06:29 PM.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  9. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    You just don't get it and probably never will. Keep in mind "our" plumbing supply connection at cost. So, cost to the camp for two units will be about $2k total (free install by pro-plumbers already lined up) and we get unlimited hot water. Get this, UNLIMITED HOT WATER for our campers. Something the current system can't offer. Six showers in use by two hundred campers at Winter Camp 3 weeks ago showed we had to change something when we couldn't keep up with hot water demand. Please note,I never said cost benefit, savings, ROI, nada!


    UNLIMITED HOT WATER

    It would be interesting to try to follow NHmaster's advice. One little 50 gallon electric heater for six showers in a camp. Funny how you already have multiple electric water heaters and they can't keep up with the demand.


    I notice that you have followed some of NHmaster's advice.

    "The world is full of stupid people. Try not to be one of the crowd."

  10. #25
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    So you base you undying love for this crap on the fact that you can get the stuff and labor donated. Great, wonderfull, good for you. What about everybody else. I get it just fine. In fact I get paid to GET IT.

    If one 50 gallon heater wouldn't do it you could put in 3 more and still have it cost less especially if your gracious plumbing supply sold them to you at cost also.

    I'm done with this thread. It's an illogical total waste of time for anybody that is actually considering purchasing a tankless. 99.9% of folks can't get the equipment at cost and 95.9% of folks don't have the skills or tools to install the thing. Basing cost comparisons on essentially "free" equipment is rediculous. However free or not free the operating cost doesn't change and even at "cost" a 4% savings just breaks even. Good by..... Oh and when you start having problems with the thing(s) you only have to answer to a whole campground full of angry campers not just the wife and childdren.

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member chris8796's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    We are about to install just such a parallel set up at a Boy Scout camp here to supply 6 showers and ditch the 50 gal electric water heaters in favor of propane.

    If you have the right physical layout, this would be the ideal situation for drain heat recovery units (lots of showers, high fuel cost). Preheat the incoming cold water with warm drain water. It is easy to get a 20 degree rise in incoming water temp (45 to 65) and has an actual payback.

    2.2 gal/min x 6 showers x 20 degree F x 8.8 lbs/gal = 2323 btu/min

    Propane is 91600 btu/gal x 80% water heater efficacy / $3 gal= 24400 btu/$


    2323 btu/min / 24400 btu/$ = 9.5 cents/min, (When all 6 showers running)

    200 campers/6 showers x 6 min/shower =200 minutes of showering

    200 mins x 9.5 c/min = $19.00 a showering cycle.

    I would assume $1500 in capital costs w/free labor. Thats about 79 shower cycles for full payback, so it depends on how often the camp is used. You also get the benefit of increased capacity and no maintenance issues.

  12. #27
    Engineer Furd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wet side of Washington State
    Posts
    446

    Default

    I have to agree with NH on this issue. I looked at the Navian website and was suitably impressed. I was actually thinking about going that route when my water heater dies, until it came to finding out the price and local distributors. The link to the distributors didn't work and through a bit more Googling I found prices of $1500 and up, plus shipping, of course.

    I can purchase THREE tank-type water heaters for the price of that Navian. Sure, I'll lose a bit on efficiency and pay a bit more in natural gas purchases but damn, I still think that I'll come out ahead by the time I die by going with the old tank-type.

    And just in case someone wants to know, figuring ROI is what I did for a living for too many years.

  13. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chris8796 View Post
    If you have the right physical layout, this would be the ideal situation for drain heat recovery units (lots of showers, high fuel cost). Preheat the incoming cold water with warm drain water. It is easy to get a 20 degree rise in incoming water temp (45 to 65) and has an actual payback.

    2.2 gal/min x 6 showers x 20 degree F x 8.8 lbs/gal = 2323 btu/min

    Propane is 91600 btu/gal x 80% water heater efficacy / $3 gal= 24400 btu/$


    2323 btu/min / 24400 btu/$ = 9.5 cents/min, (When all 6 showers running)

    200 campers/6 showers x 6 min/shower =200 minutes of showering

    200 mins x 9.5 c/min = $19.00 a showering cycle.

    I would assume $1500 in capital costs w/free labor. Thats about 79 shower cycles for full payback, so it depends on how often the camp is used. You also get the benefit of increased capacity and no maintenance issues.
    Never heard of such.... Neat idea. Concerned about servicability with a 70+ year old "non-tech" camp ranger.
    "Dude, we can fix that. My old man is a TV repairman, he's got the ultimate set of tools!" --Jeff Spicoli


    http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member chris8796's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregsauls View Post
    Never heard of such.... Neat idea. Concerned about servicability with a 70+ year old "non-tech" camp ranger.
    One of the best things about them is they are essentially idiotproof, since there are no moving parts. It is usually just a copper pipe in the drain stream with a coil of copper pipe around it, which acts as a heat exchanger. Here is a goverment webpage on them. DHRU. They become more attractive with high volumes of hot water use, high energy costs and colder cold water temperatures. I would geuss they start to become viable for residential use with households averaging more than 30 minutes of showers a day and avg cold water temps of 55 F (possibly less with high energy costs). Crunching the numbers at my house I save about 1 cent per min of showering x 30 minutes a day (4 people) x 365 days = ~$110 per year. Capital costs were $500 DIY or probably $800-1000 if professionally installed. The DIY numbers are no-brainers with 20+% ROI. Even 10+% ROI is good for some and below the cost of capital. They are obivously not viable for every application, but have good potential in some applications, such as your camp scenario.

  15. #30
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    Is this device code approved because it presents a very real possiblity of cross contamination should the exchanger be breached.

Similar Threads

  1. First Post: Navien tankless water heater question
    By BillM18641 in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-06-2011, 01:30 PM
  2. Smell of Gas - Navien Tankless Heater
    By cawhitehead in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-21-2011, 05:43 PM
  3. navien tankless water heater
    By imktc1 in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-10-2011, 04:10 PM
  4. Navien Tankless Water Heater---Well Pump Setting
    By JTCA in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-07-2010, 02:53 PM
  5. Navien Tankless and Hot Water Circulator
    By mn4az in forum Tankless Water Heater Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-29-2010, 10:39 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •