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Thread: Recessed light over shower

  1. #16
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris75 View Post
    And if you can answer WHY to any of your statments I will be impressed.
    Can you elaborate please. I'm still not quite understanding what you are getting at. Just come out and say it, don't be afraid.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    Can you elaborate please. I'm still not quite understanding what you are getting at. Just come out and say it, don't be afraid.
    I would like to know why you would feel safer.
    If I came in out of the rain and was wet should the switch I turn on the light with be GFCI protected?
    Would it be safer if the whole house had GFCI protection?

  3. #18
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Actually, yes it would be safer if the whole house had GFCI protection.

    Should every light be GCFI protected? Depends on how safe you want to make the house.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  4. #19
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    It's surprising that you would know the complicated answer to your light bulb question(50 watt and 100 watt and someone removes the neutral, blah blah blah) and not know the answer to the simple question you just asked.

    Are you one of those guys who are really book smart but lack common sense?
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  5. #20
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    It's surprising that you would know the complicated answer to your light bulb question(50 watt and 100 watt and someone removes the neutral, blah blah blah) and not know the answer to the simple question you just asked.
    Gabe, I think it is obvious that that is not the case.

    Many folks who just don't know any better think that every electrical device in a home is inherently unsafe. You might just be one of those folks.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  6. #21
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Speedy,

    You still haven't explained to me how a GFCI is not safer than a regular outlet.

    The reason you can't explain it, is because you know that a GFI IS safer than a regular outlet. The same way a ARCI breaker is safer than a regular breaker.

    I can't believe you're saying that someone wouldn't be safer with a GFI. I thought you said you were an electrical instructor.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  7. #22
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    You still haven't explained to me how a GFCI is not safer than a regular outlet.
    I NEVER said that.
    My opinion is why do you need the extra safety? A properly wired and grounded circuit is almost as safe as having a GFI.
    If you understood why GFIs are required in the locations they are, and that typically only receptacles require protection, you would see my point.

    Properly installed lighting does not pose a threat, but people do stupid things with things that are plugged in to a receptacle.
    Thing is people are STUPID!! If they were not we would not need half of the codes and laws we have today.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  8. #23
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I NEVER said that.
    My opinion is why do you need the extra safety? A properly wired and grounded circuit is almost as safe as having a GFI.
    If you understood why GFIs are required in the locations they are, and that typically only receptacles require protection, you would see my point.

    Properly installed lighting does not pose a threat, but people do stupid things with things that are plugged in to a receptacle.
    Thing is people are STUPID!! If they were not we would not need half of the codes and laws we have today.
    You were confused and perplexed when I said I would feel safer with a GFI connected to a light switch that I would flick on or off while wet in the shower.

    Speedy, you ask why do you need the extra safety? The answer is to be safer.

    The same reason they are requiring AFCI breakers on most circuits. To be safer. Do you think it makes sense to ask why do we need the EXTRA safety?

    Are you kidding me? Are you saying that electricity flowing through a house cannot become potentially unsafe. It's electricity my friend, it can kill and has killed. If there's a way to make it even a little safer, I'm all for it. Someone else chime in and please tell me I'm not going crazy.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    Someone else chime in and please tell me I'm not going crazy.

    We will as soon as you rethink what you are saying

  10. #25
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    I thought you said you were an electrical instructor.
    So letís instruct.
    Letís think about what is happening when we GFCI protect a receptacle. A receptacle is a place where a cord is plugged into that has an electrical appliance on the other end. This means that the electrical appliance is portable and in most cases easily moved from one location to another such as a hair dryer that is moved from one angle to another while in use.

    A switch on the other hand is never used as a receptacle. It never has a portable appliance plugged into it that is easily moved from one location to another location. A switch is located in a box is for the most part is flush with the wall. There are no exposed live parts that someone could come in contact with such as the slots of a receptacle.

    Some lights when installed in a wet location are required to be protected by a GFCI device. In such cases a light when on produces heat and should cold water come into contact could cause the bulb to rupture and expose live parts that are internal to the bulb.

    A switch on the other hand is never used as a light fixture. It never has bulb that could break. A switch is located in a box is for the most part is flush with the wall. There are no exposed live parts that someone could come in contact should the bulb burst.

    In summary it is real easy to understand why a receptacle would need GFCI protection in wet locations and why some light fixtures would need to be protected but not one reason to protect a switch.

    Class dismissed

  11. #26
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    You were confused and perplexed when I said I would feel safer with a GFI connected to a light switch that I would flick on or off while wet in the shower.
    "Perplexed"?? You certainly are one for the drama.
    No, I don't think I was.



    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    The same reason they are requiring AFCI breakers on most circuits. To be safer. Do you think it makes sense to ask why do we need the EXTRA safety?
    No, it's because the manufacturers lobbied the code making panels and to prevent litigation in cases where that stupidity I mentioned rears it's ugly head. The ONLY thing we need to be safer from is ourselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
    Are you kidding me? Are you saying that electricity flowing through a house cannot become potentially unsafe.
    Whoa! Back up, and do NOT put words in my mouth. That is NOT what I asked or said.
    Of course it can become unsafe if there is damage or someone messes with it who should not be messing with it. Or if someone did not install it correctly in the first place. THAT sir is my point.

    I HATE being coded into a corner because Johnny Handyman is a hack and we need to write new codes to protect him !!!!
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  12. #27
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    BTW, you are going crazy.
    Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.

  13. #28
    Remodel Contractor GabeS's Avatar
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    Ok. I see everyone's point.

    Not sure I agree with the ARCI theory. An outlet can produce an arc that wouldn't trip a regular breaker, but would trip an AFCI.

    Petey, you're right that Joe Homeowner is never going to stop messing with systems in his house that he doesn't understand because that's just the way people are. Call them stupid or call them whatever, that's how it is. When it comes to home repairs people do stupid things. The right way, nah, why would anybody want to do that. It's too boring to do it that way.
    Gabe

    Don't follow my advice, I only know a thing or two about a thing or two.

  14. #29
    DIY Senior Member burleymike's Avatar
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    No matter how many GFCIs or AFCIs you have bad things can still happen. Just look at one of my favorite videos to see the kinds of things that can go wrong with elctricity. While this is not something that happens often it can happen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTPiowK6JQY

  15. #30

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    Gabe,

    If you want to feel better protected then a GFCI breaker feeding the entire bathroom circuit is a better idea.

    The GFCI receptacle only protects what is plugged into it or what is downstream of the load side if used.

    An AFCI breaker is also a great idea for arcing and sparking issues.

    GFCI protection is not foolproof and there are ways in which a GFCI will not trip and you will be electricuted. If there is not path to ground during the fault and the GFCI senses the exact same current on the feed and neutral then it will never trip.

    The 2008 codes add a significant amount of GFCI and AFCI protection to homes. We are still on the 05 in our area.
    http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/forum.php
    My answers are based mostly on the ICC codes. Advice given is my personal opinion and every person performing work should acquire a permit from his/her jurisdiction and get the work inspected. My opinions are not directions to follow for DIYs or professionals

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