DIY Electrical

Cookie said:

How can that be?

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How can that NOT be?????

What do you think folks should do. Say "I need to do an electrical project in my house. I think I'll go online and ask how to do the whole thing."

The code book is over 700 pages long. WHY do you think that is?

I am of the FIRM belief that folks should have a good clue about what they are doing BEFORE the attempt it. And coming to an internet message board and asking for 100% of the information is NOT the answer!!!
This is why I rarely help posts like "I want to replace my service panel. How do I do that?"

Now Speedy Petey,

If someone asks, " I am replacing my panel and has some questions, because they are already doing it, then, I guess they have enough of expertise to do it, eh? If someone asks, " how do I bond the panel, I guess they know enough, eh. If someone starts off, " I WANT TO REPLACE MY ENTIRE PANEL BOX, GIVE ME STEP BY STEP DIRECTIONS, TELL ME NOW HOW TO DO IT!" , then you could give the standard forum answer of, " call an electrician."

I am going now to change my light bulb. and, I don't need an electrician.

Cookie said:

jwelectric said:

I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.

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My advice to you would be not to give advice. If it makes you uncomfortable then, you should not do it.

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Didn't say I was uncomfortable giving advide just said that something needs to be done about those who keep giving bad advice.

If it were not for people like me giving advice pray tell me who would be handing out this advice.

Would it be those who have no knowledge at all?
Would it be those who have a total disregard for safety?
Would this site be a site of the blind leading the blind?

Okay if you would like I can stop giving advice and only make comments.

I did work on a house that literally had open wire nutted connections everywhere, from the homeowner who added and spliced a ton of lights without boxing them properly.


You literally had to walk through the basement carefully to make sure you didn't hit them, for fear of causing them to break loose.


I hope the city, the electricians all got their arse sued to hell and back and lost their jobs respectively.


Who in the **** wires a entire garage off an outside outlet?

Even as a plumber I know that due to the load on those circuits that a new wire pulled to the panel, a heavy one is required if you have at least 6-10 circuits.


And from a novice I am, I've wired 3 way switches up and it's mandatory 14-3. Never knew that ground could be used in such a way.

It's a shame but in this case it takes dead kids to get people to wake up to reality.

I say the building inspector has a heavy hand in this, more than the electrician because this guy is trained to make sure the electric is inspected.


But then again, no electrician with half a ****ing brain knows to check continuity of a ground before ASSUMING there's a ground to follow. Idiots!


Fast buck antics is all this is. $40 would of saved a life, but it took a life to find that out.

jwelectric said:

Herein lays a major problem in the electrical trade. Most of these Do-It-Yourself web sites are moderated by people that have little or no knowledge of the aspects of electrical theory their self and will allow someone with even less knowledge give advice to someone about an electrical circuit.

I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.
.

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You sound uncomfortable to me by the way you write, you give an air of not wanting to. If you don't want to give advice that is fine, there are others who will, and will correct others bad advice. People who are knowledgeable are needed here to help DIY'ers. If people choose to do that is great, if not that is great, too.

I am sure Terry would appreciate it.

jar546 said:

Here is a good example.

If you look at the photo of the Professional job that looks great there are no safety hazards but there are still 3 code violations that caused the job to fail. They are small and not really safety related but still code violations.

Can any of you DIYrs see the 3 code violations in the professional photo?

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I would certainly like to know the answers so that I can learn ........... learning is a good thing.

However, I would like to try and find the violations myself:

1: The electrical panel is located entirely to close to the plumbing manifold. Water and electricity do not mix!
2: That appears to be an electrical transformer attached to the outlet box in the lower left-hand corner. The wire terminations are exposed.
3: The outlet in the lower left-hand corner should be a GFCI. Can't really tell by the photo.
4: The exposed wire end on the upper right-hand side of the electrical panel should be capped, even though it isn't connected being or being used. I am guessing on this one !!!!!!!

Well, how well did I do? At least I tried and I am willing to learn!

RUGGED, I had the SAME thing happen with Advanta!!! F- that company!

I should have the same sig line as you just to warn folks.

tvl said:

I would certainly like to know the answers so that I can learn ........... learning is a good thing.

However, I would like to try and find the violations myself:

1: The electrical panel is located entirely to close to the plumbing manifold. Water and electricity do not mix! NO
2: That appears to be an electrical transformer attached to the outlet box in the lower left-hand corner. The wire terminations are exposed. Wrong Again
3: The outlet in the lower left-hand corner should be a GFCI. Can't really tell by the photo. It is GFCI Protected, good thought
4: The exposed wire end on the upper right-hand side of the electrical panel should be capped, even though it isn't connected being or being used. I am guessing on this one !!!!!!! Again, Wrong

Well, how well did I do? At least I tried and I am willing to learn!

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This is how you did. There are 3 violations and you did not find any of them. Your guesses are admirable and I thank you for trying.

This goes towards proving my point that there is much more to electrical work than reading a DIY book and watching an episode of This Old House.

If you screw up a plumbing job then your crapper overflows or you have a leak. Worse case is a venting problem that fills the house with a smelly yet deadly gas.

If you screw up electric you can kill yourselves or others with the smallest of mistakes.

jar546 said:

This is how you did. There are 3 violations and you did not find any of them. Your guesses are admirable and I thank you for trying.

This goes towards proving my point that there is much more to electrical work than reading a DIY book and watching an episode of This Old House.

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Ok, I do appreciate you allowing me to take the test ............. although I flunked!

But, I believe you stated this job was originally done by a professional ............ and he flunked also. That does say something!

Now, don't get me wrong, although a professional is better equipped with tools and knowledge, he does make mistakes too. I still believe the DIYer can do minor electrical jobs as well as the professional, given the right guidance/information.

I believe the real problem with a lot of professional outfits today is they know all too well that time is money. Extra time spent on a job will certainly mean the difference in neatness, as shown in your earlier post, quality and less code violations. I guess some contractors may be simply testing the "system" to see what they can get by with because of the issue of "time is money".

I have looked at MANY homes being built in our community and the neatness of the wires being pulled to the electrical panel doesn't even come close to the photo you posted. Once again, time is money! This is why I believe a homeowner will do a better job given the chance ........... it is their home!

So, my purpose of stating these things isn't meant to offend the expert, but to only show that the homeowner is more than willing to take the extra time to do the jobe neatly and correctly ........... at least that is me!

The outside panel, that some were more than happy to point out the code violations, was installed by a local electrical contractor some years back. Trust me, I will fix the problem because this is our home and I want it done correctly and neatly .......... I simply need the information and I can do the rest.

I trust the "experts" will be willing to help the DIYer complete minor task such as adding a breaker or new circuit. Otherwise, what is the real purpose of this site? ........ telling an individual to contact an electrician isn't always the answer in an economy which is full of greed and where ample "time" on a job is not allowed.

I certainly do hope I haven't offended anyone here, as I felt the need to add a few comments on behalf of the DIYer.

And by the way, will someone let us know what the code violations are in the earlier photo???

1) Not all cables are secured within 12" of the panel.
2) The bending radius of the NM cable is too small where it is 90'd.
3) There are 3 NM cables under 1 staple in several areas.

1a) SEC not supported at all.
1aa) That SER cable does not look supported either.

jar546 said:

3) There are 3 NM cables under 1 staple in several areas.

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This one I didn't even consider because there are staples that are rated for that.

Speedy Petey said:

1a) SEC not supported at all.
1aa) That SER cable does not look supported either.


This one I didn't even consider because there are staples that are rated for that.

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OK great, now show me your derating calculations.

jar546 said:

Most of the time professionals do work, they pull permits and get the work inspected. If they are true professionals then they have the proper training and experience to perform the work. Like all humans, they too make mistakes.

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I know of professional and diy work in my area that is done off-permit. The professional work tends to get lumped in with larger jobs or side work that does not require permits. I'm not sure if I agree with your generalization.

Wasn't this job done by a pro? Laziness, sloppiness, and carelessness are not reserved for DIY'ers. I wonder if the contractor decided to make an extra buck or cover up a mistake.

Steve

Tvl,

There is no way a DIY'er unless they have been a DIY'er for years would had known the code violations. So, don't feel bad. My husband was a sparky and an EE for years, he was just the nicest man I ever knew. He would put on demonstrations in our garage in the summertime showing the neighborhood kids things, to teach them things. It was pretty amazing for he was so low-keyed and humble; the parents would come along once a awhile or they would call and ask, what he was going to do that Saturday afternoon. He always took the time to help a neighbor, to show them what they needed and in many instances, he just did the work while they watched and learned. He loved his line of work and was the cream of the crop. He designed the electrical for NASA on the wind tunnels and I did the mathematics to it. Plus other things. We had alot of fun. No one said, electrical is safe, it is like anything else, if you are going to do something you need to learn it safely. That is where, this wonderful forum devoted to DIY'ers comes into play. I hope they will site the different code violations on other pictures for people as well, that is a great idea with the pictures and I think would enable others to learn. Some people are visual learners. Then, when someone is in over their head to the point of no return, then, suggest of course, the services of a sparky. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and if someone is interested in learning, and if we have the capacity to teach, to share, it is the right thing to do.

jar546 said:

If you screw up a plumbing job then your crapper overflows or you have a leak. Worse case is a venting problem that fills the house with a smelly yet deadly gas.

If you screw up electric you can kill yourselves or others with the smallest of mistakes.

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Let's give the plumbers a break and please have a bit of respect for your parallel trade.

I live in an old house. The plumbing inspector was nice enough to notice that the boiler did not have a backflow prevention valve on the supply. I have stared at the pressure reducing valve hundreds of times.

The pressure reducing valve was installed by a licensed HVAC contractor in my area about 10 years ago. I paid him about $1000 to put in two large ball valves, replace the pump, and perform general maintenance on the system. He did not pull permits and I was not smart enough to ask.

The water from the boiler could easily have back fed into the cold water line of the house when they were working on the street a few years ago. I could have been a substantial health issue that could have sent my kids to the hospital.

I wonder if he saved a few bucks or a trip back to the shop. Perhaps it was just an honest mistake.

Steve

jar546 said:

OK great, now show me your derating calculations.

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Well, if you mean the potential six CC conductors bundled, I don't even consider it until the number reaches ten.

seaneys said:

Let's give the plumbers a break and please have a bit of respect for your parallel trade.

I live in an old house. The plumbing inspector was nice enough to notice that the boiler did not have a backflow prevention valve on the supply. I have stared at the pressure reducing valve hundreds of times.

The pressure reducing valve was installed by a licensed HVAC contractor in my area about 10 years ago. I paid him about $1000 to put in two large ball valves, replace the pump, and perform general maintenance on the system. He did not pull permits and I was not smart enough to ask.

The water from the boiler could easily have back fed into the cold water line of the house when they were working on the street a few years ago. I could have been a substantial health issue that could have sent my kids to the hospital.

I wonder if he saved a few bucks or a trip back to the shop. Perhaps it was just an honest mistake.

Steve

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I am comparing electrical to plumbing, not electrical to the mechanical trades there is a different inspection, certification and code for that.

As a matter of fact residential construction inspections are broken down into several categories and certifications for inspectors.

Building Inspection (foundation, frame, egress, fire protection, roofing, etc)
Plumbing (water in, water out)
Electrical (nough said)
Mechanical (HVAC, boilers, furnaces, fuel piping, ductwork)
Energy (insulation)

Speedy Petey said:

The code book is over 700 pages long. WHY do you think that is?

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So manufacturers can sell more crap?

Also... Isn't that doorbell wire (class 2) supposed to be 2 inches away from that wire?

(I hope this inspection is done and over with and you are not going to include these additional things for him to fix! )

Cass said:

The boy died because of negligence pure and simple...while there were a few people who should / could have caught something that would have prevented it the majority of fault lies with the...

I wonder if the contractor will have his license pulled permanently or do any jail time.

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We've discussed this, elsewhere, about a year ago... the contractor got off with a fine.

...a factoid I find obscene.




edit - WTF is this banner ad doing in my post?

2nd edit - now it's gone? Huh?

3rd edit - NOW IT'S BACK? I'm so confused...