Reduced voltage at outlets, and ground test question

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Redwood

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You would then use the black graduations and apply the numbers pretty much the same way. Pick the number scale thats close and add "0's" as needed.
 

Cass

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WoW...you can make life much easier if you go to a big box store and buy a voltage tester that looks something like this

voltage%20tester.jpg


Then start at the main pannel...find the problem circuit...and trace it back until you find the problem...You may find a tester like the one above is easier to use and safer...

Better still call an electrician to trouble shoot it for you...like jwelectric below is inferring...he may be right about the outcome...
 
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JWelectric

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If this dude doesn't know how to read the meter he is using pray tell me why are we trying to tell him how to put his hands into something that could kill him?

Just which of us is more stupid? The guy not knowing or us trying to help him kill himself?
 

Redwood

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If this dude doesn't know how to read the meter he is using pray tell me why are we trying to tell him how to put his hands into something that could kill him?

Just which of us is more stupid? The guy not knowing or us trying to help him kill himself?

I would tend to agree...:eek:
 

Mnalep

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If this dude doesn't know how to read the meter he is using pray tell me why are we trying to tell him how to put his hands into something that could kill him?

Just which of us is more stupid? The guy not knowing or us trying to help him kill himself?

jwelectric,

"DUDE", I appreciate you looking out for my well being. But please do not discourage the people here from answering my questions.

The fact is that I may not know exactly if my multimeter is telling me there is 25 volts, or 50 volts on a line - but I DO understand there is voltage in the lines - and I am not going to put my hands on any line, with any voltage, in it!

Also, if the instruction booklet that came with this meter, was written with any clarity at all, or even just an example, I would already know how to read the meter.

If those with experience stopped training those without experience, how would we ever get new electricians, policemen, or any other profession where a 'learner' could get injured. No one would ever learn how to do things for themselves, or around their home or automobile.

We all have to learn somewhere.

Please don't discourage people from helping others, or answering questions on this forum.
 
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Cass

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jwelectric,

"DUDE", I appreciate you looking out for my well being. But please do not discourage the people here from answering my questions.

The fact is that I may not know exactly if my multimeter is telling me there is 25 volts, or 50 volts on a line - but I DO understand there is voltage in the lines - and I am not going to put my hands on any line, with any voltage, in it!

Also, if the instruction booklet that came with this meter, was written with any clarity at all, or even just an example, I would already know how to read the meter.

If those with experience stopped training those without experience, how would we ever get new electricians, policemen, or any other profession where a 'learner' could get injured. No one would ever learn how to do things for themselves, or around their home or automobile.

We all have to learn somewhere.

Please don't discourage people from helping others, or answering questions on this forum.


We as professionals giving help through suggestions on this forum also have to judge by what questions are asked, the level of ability the questioner has, because we have no idea...most DIYrs that have to ask about something we regard as basic sets off a alarm that leads us to believe, right or wrong, that the DIYer is heading into an area that he/she knows little or nothing about...An open electrical panel is not where a novice with no knowledge needs to be...enough experienced electricians that become complacent are injured and some die even though they are well trained. Something as simple as wearing a wedding band while working in a panel can be deadly.

So if you find sometimes that it seems someone does not want to help it is due to caution and us knowing what can happen to someone who, in our opinion, is somewhere he has no business being and doing something he has no or limited knowledge about.

It is a moral call each individual has to make. So don't take it personally, we have no way of knowing what your level of ability is.

It boils down to many people knowing just enough about something to be dangerous or deadly and us trying to figure out if your one of them.
 
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Rowdy

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mnalep, It is my understanding that you have tested for voltage, checked your fixtures for good connections, checked continuity between neutral and ground, and then checked them all again and again.

Your tests aren't producing results so it is time to try basic troubleshooting. Talk to your Mother and try to get as much information as possible on the problem, when the light fixture stopped working? What was going on at that time, like remodeling, putting screws or nails into the walls, installing new fixtures and as many other changes that she can think of.

Someone said a GFI may be tripped in the circuit, with voltage present I have my doubts, but look for a tripped GFI, inside, outside, in the garage or any other place that there could be one.

Try isolation:

By now you know the circuit pretty well, shut the power off and go to wherever you feel is the center of that circuit and remove the fixture, tape all exposed wiring individually so that there is no chance of anyone getting hurt then turn the power back on and see if the problem exists in that half of the circuit. If there is a problem there, shut the power off and remove the fixtures one by one taping all of the bare conductors and turning the power back on.

Sometimes testing only leads to frustration, try isolating and see if that will get you results. Good Luck.
 

Mnalep

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Rowdy, Thanks for your help.

I have not yet moved the wiring from the push in's to the screw terminals. I plan to try that tonight or tomorrow.

I like the idea of disconnecting the circuit in the middle and observing if the problem still exists on the first half of the circuit. Divide and conquer.

BTW, There is no GFCI's anywhere in my mom's house. I examined at all the outlets when I was observing to determine all the outlets and lights on this one bad circuit.
 

Thatguy

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PS: I totally don't understand the sensitivity, OHMS/Volt, and resisitance you wrote about?

It's a bit hard to understand.

A measuring device should not change the circuit voltage when you hook it up to read voltage. The higher the sensitivity of the meter, the less the voltage you're measuring is dropped when you hook up your meter.

I have a DVM that has 20 MΩ input impedance, so if it's measuring 20v it only pulls 20/20MΩ = 1µA from the circuit it's measuring. This is OK for almost all applications except vacuum tube circuits, and there aren't very many of them around anymore.

My 1000Ω/volt meter on the 20v scale would pull 20/20kΩ = 1 mA from the circuit being measured.

You can pull about 5A out of household circuits and only drop the voltage ~1%, except when measuring these phantom voltages.
 

Mnalep

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I have put in 4 new outlets, made sure they are all black wires to brass screws and white wires to silver screws, and that the bare ground wire on the green grounding screw.

I thought I was doing good, but no success. I tried disconnecting at the middle of the circuit, and ended up at the first outlet.

At that first outlet, with the rest of the circuit disconnected I put the 3 plug circuit tester in, the tester gave me 2 green lights, but the middle green light on the tester was very weak (2 green lights is supposed to be OK).

With that tester still in the bottom slots of the outlet I plugged in a 4 watt light (a little candle light) into the upper slots - and the 4w bulb did not glow, and the tester changed to HOT/GROUND reversed (1 green and 1 orange light).

SO, I'm thinking the problem has to either be in the wire from the fuse box to the first rececptacle, or at the fuse box?

Is the tester actually telling me that the ground wire is now HOT? (I guess that would explain why the 4w bulb is not lighting, as it is on a 2 prong wire that is plugged into the hot and neutral slots of the outlet, and if the hot slot is not hot - because the ground wire is hot - then the bulb would not light?)

I did notice yesterday that in the fuse box, the screw in receptacle for the base of the fuse was a little wobbly, although it got good and firm (no wobble at all) once the fuse was screwed in. This would not be causing the problem, would it?

What would you test or look at next, to find the problem?

I am thinking that next I should pull out the ceiling tiles and trace the wire back to the fuse box, and make sure that the wire from the fuse box to the first receptacle is intact. And if that wire is intact, then the next thing would be to open the fuse box and see if there is any problem in there?

A few people said this could be an OPEN NEUTRAL also., but I'm not sure how to test to confirm OPEN NEUTRAL vs HOT/GROUND reveresed? If the ground wire is HOT, shouldn't I be able to put a test lamp on the ground wire and the steel receptacle box and see it light up?
 
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Rowdy

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mnalep, You have done a lot of work on this circuit, you have isolated the problem to the point that an electrician come come in and fix it with minimal expense.

They will have access to any parts that are needed, the knowledge to work in the panel etc.

I feel it is time to make that call!

Your mother may have a leak in her roof next year, would be nice if you were around to fix that for her:)
 

Thatguy

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Post a schematic of what you think you have.

Measure voltages & resistances with respect to a known good ground. It used to be you could use a cold water pipe for a ground, but now it's kind of iffy. If a lamp between the short slot and ground lights, it is a good ground and a good short slot.

Any voltages measured should be done while the voltage is loaded down with an incandescent lamp.

What makes this difficult is all the permutations and combinations involved with 3 wires and 3 terminals. And, that neutral and ground will read the same ohms to ground because they are connected at the panel.

Wear face protection; shorts can spectacularly vaporize copper, or screwdriver tips, before the breaker has a chance to trip.

The worst outcome is to be on the evening news.:D
 
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