Steam shower Construction

[dradam]

I am building a steam shower an have had to sort through a lot of conflicting information on the web. I know many like kerdi or nobleseal but the inside membranes seem like extra cost, more pieces or strips to leak and more work to install (two layers of thinset). I am looking for feedback on my current plan.

I have an acrylic base and ceiling that are preformed and steam compatible so For the walls I am planning..

2x4 stud walls

pvc or cpe membrane over the 2x4 will go inside the lip of the acrylic ceiling and base sealed to the lip top and bottom

1/2 inch durock over the cpe or pvc membrane

unfortified thinset joints mid wall, but silicone joints between wall panels and between walls and ceiling /base to allow for expansion.

unfortified thinset and grout to adhere my tile with white silicone at ceiling/base and wall junction to allow for expansion.

Based on what I have read having the vapor/moisture barrier outside the enclosure is ok as long as the thinset and grout are not latex modified as this would trap moisture beneath the tile.


Thank you

[geniescience]

Sounds good. Very thorough work. Congratulations.

-david

[jadnashua]

Having the waterproofing underneath means that you will have a huge amount of moisture IN the tile and walls. A recipe for mold. You really want a surface membrane and there are probably 3-4 that are approved for this. I don't know if you can view the specifications on-line for free, or have to buy the book, but the TCNA (Tile Council North America) sets the standards for tile use in showers, and on floors (well, basically everywhere you could reasonably put tile). These form the basis of acceptable industry standards. Many areas base the building codes on them by reference. Don't try to roll your own - go to the source. They've tested and know what works. It's a major expense building a steam shower; might as well do it so it will last and perform well.

[dradam]

what is your recommended inside treatment -Kerdi?

[jadnashua]

Personally, I like Kerdi. Latticrete and Noble both make good surface waterproofing systems as well. In my view, the less you can saturate with moisture the better. This requires a surface membrane, not one embedded further inside the steam shower. Attention to detail is paramount - you don't want any of that moisture to get into the wall system. While not a big deal in a conventional shower, all of the nail or screw holes required to install CBU on top of a membrane means numerous holes. The vapor pressure drives moisture deep within the structure in a steam shower. It isn't any where near as big a problem in a conventional one. This means sealing every penetration - steam head, valves, etc. carefully and well. A steam shower is a very different animal than a conventional shower. A Sloped ceiling is also very useful since you don't want cold drips of condensation falling on you while you are lounging in the steam, either.

If you haven't visited www.johnbridge.com, you should. You'll get the straight, well-qualified line of help there from tiling pros that have more than one steam shower under their belts. TCNA defines more than one way to correctly build a steam shower...pick one, and stick with it. Don't try to mix systems or invent your own.

[dradam]

thank you very much

[theshowerguy]

have anyone had any experience with a <a href="Steam">http://www.steamshowers.net">SteamSteam"> Shower</a> enclosure ? im looking into a Ariel Platinum steam shower ... this is the one im considering . http://www.steamshowers.net/Ariel-Pl...2f8_shower.htm

[johnfrwhipple]

I went out last weekend and visited this failing steam shower. The shower was poorly designed and constructed. With a little effort on the tile crew, builder and plumber this client could be enjoying a weekend steam instead of researching ways of replacing the drain and repositioning the steam head location. I'm not sure at what point the crew above said "%^&* it" and carried on with the build - but unless your careful and plan properly you could have a steam shower that doesn't work and no recourse to have it fixed.

This steam shower the second I've seen on the North Shore that failed in under a year. Buyer beware in Vancouver there is no "Steam Shower Inspection" and you are not required to manage the steam shower's vapour. You need only follow the TTMAC or TCNA if you want your shower to last and your new steam shower spa not to ruin your home. Building a steam shower in Vancouver like many major cities in North America is a very simple procedure. The sad fact is that there is little information or codes to follow.

Your best bet is to tell your builder, your plumber and your tile crew that you want all TTMAC, TCNA or ANSI specifications met for your new steam shower build. Here in Vancouver we build them this way on every job. The TTMAC specifies the use of a modified thin-set in steam shower construction so this means you will need a topical membrane other than Kerdi to build a steam shower and meet the TTMAC steam shower requirements - Noble Seal TS is a better product for steam showers and has a perm rating of 0.05 far exceeding the Perm rating requirement of 1.0.

I have learned from my Ardex rep that they work closely with Kerdi over seas and they have a letter on file from Schluter allowing the use of Ardex's modified thin sets with a Kerdi install. If I where to build a Kerdi Steam shower here in Vancouver I would use the Ardex setting materials and insure that the seams of Kerdi are sealed with Kerdi Fix instead of thin set. I did follow up with Schluter's top tech and he informs me that the "Verbage" in the TTMAC will be updated soon to included reference to following the manufactures guidelines - this will open the doors to using non-modifed thin set in a steam shower here in Canada. The current TTMAC guidelines do require a modified thin set.

[johnfrwhipple]

...Based on what I have read having the vapor/moisture barrier outside the enclosure is ok as long as the thinset and grout are not latex modified as this would trap moisture beneath the tile...

Here in Canada a modified thin-set is required for a steam showers. If you using durock or concrete board your vapour barrier goes behind the backer board then you tape your seams. If you take this approach Laticrete's Hydro Ban is an excellent product to increase the performance of the showers assembly.

I prefer topical sheet membranes in steam showers. Products like Kerdi, Noble Seal TS and Wedi are good options. Since Kerdi requires a dry-set mortar you might look into Ardex's setting materials in conjunction with a Kerdi or Kerdi Board install. Ardex does offer a warranty with this "Hybrid" install of modified thin set over Kerdi both in front and behind I'm told.

You can also use Redguard as a liquid topical membrane but custom wants a 45 mil coverage. Below is a link to their cross section. I'm not sure why they show a void in the membrane and I plan to look more closely into this diagram.


http://custombuildingproducts.net/do...pdf/CSR614.pdf

Other than the missing vapour barrier in the ceiling this is a good cross section. Red Guard needs a thickness of 45 mil before it's ready for tile. That is nearly 5 coats with a brush.

[johnfrwhipple]

We started a new steam shower and the construction is happening as we speak. Yesterday I met with the plumber and framer and we went over the layout. As with any job lay out is key. A steam shower has numerous elements and factors to consider. Often a tile layout and lighting plan should be done first so any framing modifications can take place.

This project will be powered by a ThermaSol Pro Series steam unit and will be equipped with both sound and light. I can not wait to hear the tunes cranking out in this new steam shower. Not only that the client insisted that all of us try it out when it's done! I love that and will take her up on her offer later next month. You don't need to ask me twice and our last steam project (also a ThermaSol) the client invited me down for a steam as well! The ThermaSol steam units start up fast and I found the steam shower experience amazing - Wish I had one.

Coming home from a long day working outside I think a quick steam would help thaw out those cold bones when working in Vancouver's damp raining days.

This current job is for a client with mobility issues so grab bars and safety took center stage. We will build a low curb and use a linear drain so the footing is as safe as possible and we are designing the unit to be easy to enter if the client one day is confined to a wheel chair. Once safety was considered the service of the steam unit was the next priority. We have lots of room in the Laundry room and will place the steamer unit above the washing machine and the ThermaSol drain pan will tied into the Laundry waste line.

Flushing a steam unit is important and required to keep them in good working order. The ThermaSol system self flushes and this process uses the actual steam line to do so. You need to have paid those bi-yearly bills to a plumber year after year to understand how clever this design is. Since the ThermaSol unit does this itself the unit works amazing. No wonder they come with the best warranty in the business.

[jla]

My contractor will be beginning my master bath renovation shortly and I am having a Thermasol Pro-Series steam shower installed. After reading your posts, I am concerned that the proper steps may be inadvertently overlooked in the steam shower installation since it is not a common project in this area. How do I make sure that the proper steps are followed as well as the proper supplies, especially barriers, membranes, mortars, etc. are used? Is there a specific check list of steps detailing all of this? I'd rather be extra careful now and not have any future problems.

[jadnashua]

See if your local library has a copy of the latest (2012) version of the TCNA handbook - Tile Council of North America, if not, you can buy one directly from them. In there, they list and describe all industry approved and tested ways to build a successful steam shower. If your contractor followed one of the approved methods AND used good workmanship without errors or omissions, it should be okay. This isn't something people should wing on their own - lots of engineering and historic testing results have gone into developing methods that work.

[johnfrwhipple]

My contractor will be beginning my master bath renovation shortly and I am having a Thermasol Pro-Series steam shower installed. After reading your posts, I am concerned that the proper steps may be inadvertently overlooked in the steam shower installation since it is not a common project in this area. How do I make sure that the proper steps are followed as well as the proper supplies, especially barriers, membranes, mortars, etc. are used? Is there a specific check list of steps detailing all of this? I'd rather be extra careful now and not have any future problems.

First thing to do is to get from your builder that all work he does will conform to the current edition of the TCNA Specification Guidelines. Then ask your builder what process of waterproofing and vapour proofing is going to be used. Then contact that supplier and ThermaSol and ask for any additional information that may be needed. The hardest bit of info is the recommnedations on sealing around the pipe projections.

You can always post a play by play right here! No tougher inspection anywhere this side of the Pacific!

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

What type of tile are you using? Did you see my last ideabook on Houzz.com?

http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/35234...a-Steam-Shower

Some good information there.

Start a new thread here on Terry's site and me and the other regulars will help shed a few more pairs of eyes on your job.

If you have any specific questions fire away....

JW

[jla]

Thank you both so much for the good information. I am hoping to do a play-by-play on this blog if I can figure out what they're doing without bothering the workers too much.