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Thread: Inside fit closet flange 3"

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member dradam's Avatar
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    Default Inside fit closet flange 3"

    My contractor left me with a 3" wc pvc rough in. The pvc pipe comes straight out of the cement slab and no space was left for an over the pipe closet flange.

    While inside the pipe 3" closet flanges are available people seem to discourage these because of the narrower diameter (2 11/16). I was ready to take out the cement chisel but noted that the wax ring plastic flange that came with the toilet ( Kholer memoirs all in one box including the wax ring) had the same 2 11/16 (maybe 2 3/4) diameter as the inside fit closet flange.

    If the plastic flange that came with the toilet maches the inside diameter of the inside fit 3" pvc closent flange shouldn't that work? if I used a bigger closet flange that left a 3" inner diameter wouldn't the wax ring flange still restrict the flow any way? If I change to a wider wax ring the toilet outflow hole is the same diameter anyway.

    thanks

  2. #2
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    First thing to do is throw that wax ring with the plastic flange as far as you can. These cause problems and do no good whatsoever. Next thing to do is throw that inside fit flange the other direction so that the two will never meet. You indicate that you know these are not recommended because they cut the inside diameter of the pipe too much. Now get the flange that fit on the outside of the pipe, chip out enough concrete to allow the flange to fit over the pipe. Make sure the flange rests on top off the finished floor...NOT the sub floor. Anchor the flange to through the finished floor and into the sub floor. When you are ready to install the toilet, use a conventional wax ring. All of those things you threw away are gimmicks and are never used by professional plumbers. Just because they are sold, doesn't mean they are any good.

  3. #3
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    The only thing I could add to Gary's excellent answer is to get a flange that has a stainless steel ring and not to use an all PVC flange or, a painted steel ringed one.

    It goes on top of the finished floor too!

  4. #4
    One who lurks Basement_Lurker's Avatar
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    Default

    If you look at the trap specs of most toilets, the internal trapway is only usually about 2"-2.5" (roughly) in diameter, and the trap seal is only about 2.5" (roughly) in diameter. So by the numbers, using an inside fit flange shouldn't really cause any constriction problems.

    I suppose the problem arises with the fact that some toilets can have a bit of play when installing them as far as centering them on the flange hole (shit-hole) which could result in a possible constriction when installed on an inside fit flange.

    I would guess that using a 3" inside fit flange is probably against code in some/all states. But since your contractor left you to finish the job, I guess you have to make the decision on what's the best thing to do. Chiseling around the pipe and installing an outside fit 3" flange is the standard proper method, but using an inside fit flange so long as you take care to center the toilet on the bolts could also work (although I am sure that suggestion is going to enrage some of the mods here, heh).
    Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me? -Jack Handy


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  5. #5
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Some (albeit small number of) toilets have larger trapways (I think the Caroma is one at 3"). Using an internal mount flange limits your options and could block some things that might have made it through the smooth trap of the toilet and catch on an edge of the possibly smaller flange. You really don't want to do this. When the wax smushes down, it's possible some of it would also go in.

    If you use a wax ring with a horn, you won't get a seal, since that horn WON'T fit inside that small opening, creating the very leaks it is supposed to prevent. It sometimes has troubles even on larger flanges, especially if things aren't perfectly centere - basically, they're more trouble than they're worth and cost more, too.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  6. #6
    Plunger/TurdPuncher kingsotall's Avatar
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    Default horny wax rings

    Kohler likes to include them with their toilets.

  7. #7
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    Many Toto toilets have 3" trap ways. Basement Lurker, I'm not enraged, but I certainly take exception to your opinion on the inside flange on a 3" pipe. The fact that Kohler includes them and by implication recommends them, hardly gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Kohler reputation for quality products has gone down the toilet (pun intended) especially since low flow toilets have become mandated. As Jadnausha states, the horn causes more harm than good. In fact, it does no good.

  8. #8
    One who lurks Basement_Lurker's Avatar
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    Gary, are you sure about most TOTO's having 3" trapways? I haven't seen one yet, and not even the highly rated AQUIA models have a 3" trapway (or so say the spec sheets).

    Are you confusing the actual trapway sizing with the 3" flush valves that TOTOs use, or am I the one who is confused about the unifit flange diameter?
    Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me? -Jack Handy


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  9. #9
    DIY Junior Member dradam's Avatar
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    Default what I figured you'd say

    Thank you guys all--

    It sounds like whipping out the chisel is the safest long term option and a better wax ring.

    advice most appreciated.

  10. #10
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Your on the "right" road to take it to the outside...

  11. #11
    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    I think lurker is correct about the trapways. 3" + on the flushvalves is common, but I seem to remember the trapways being listed as more like 2"

  12. #12
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default flange

    This may be a case where logic does not work. EVERY plumber, if he has been doing repair work for any length of time, has encountered leaking toilets where the only possible cause would be the wax ring with the funnel. The funnel will cause splashing up against the bowl and if the wax ring has a marginal seal, possibly because the bowl rocks, that can cause the leak.

  13. #13

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    dang i used the wax ring that came with my memoirs toilet. maybe they used a different wax ring for yours but my Kohler memoirs came with this one and you see the measurements.

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23509

    had i known i would have used a wax ring without the plastic insert but i thought that was just a recommendation of when using the inside 3". i have always worried about those things sliding off center when mounting the toilet only to cause issues later.

  14. #14
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    The Toto Drake has an O.D. measurement of 2 7/8" on the outlet horn combine this with a inside 3" flange and a wax ring with a plastic horn and I can guarantee results that will be far from pleasing!

    No rocket science involved!

  15. #15

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    i'd also like to point out that while i am happy to have a toilet, i am not too impressed with the holer memoirs. loud and gurgles. have to hold the handle down to get a good flush. seat is way too much like a chair and the hole is smaller than i would expect. going to get a new seat if possible looks good but that is about it.

    i never should have trashed my old american standard.

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