115 volts or 220 volts to well pump

[Gary Slusser]

So you have no electrical background what so ever?

Oh but I do, since 1960 actually. A... 5 years USAF nuclear weapons maintenance which was very HIGH in electrical grounding (a lot of high explosives), 6 months building moblie homes doing all the wiring of fixtures and receptacles and then final testing of the entire home (for shorts with 1000 vac), a few years as a power company ground hand and lineman in new line construction and replacement with maintenance of existing power lines and service drops (very HIGH on grounding again), 5 years in electronic troubleshooting and 20 years of well pump work not to mention decades as a homeowner wiring this'n that but...

Now you're just blowin' smoke. Talk about what you've decided to educate me on, here's another copy:

(you) Where to start educating you on your post....
I think I will start with this comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
the pump doesn't require grounding because it is usually very well grounded in the water in the well. But it doesn't hurt unless the ground wire is broken and you are used to make it.[/quote]

(you)This comment scares the hell out of me, A pump without a low impedance path back to the service will NEVER trip the breaker, the earth is NOT a low impedance path. Your gonna kill someone. (end of your original quote)

Tell me this, if in troubleshooting a no water call on a well with a 2 wire (no ground wire) submersible pump, and at the top of the casing you undo the wire nuts and check the cable wires back to the switch and all's well but, checking the casing to the drop cable wires to the pump you find a short TO GROUND.

How do you explain that? Is that magic or is the pump and cable that is under water grounded some how? And yes, it may not have popped the breaker but tell me where is all the danger unless you're stuck on stupid and fooling around out at the casing not knowing what you're doing with the power on tripping around reading your code book.

What does that short to ground mean to you if not that the electrical cable or motor windings are in contact with the water in the well or the metal casing?

Answer that and we can go on with my education.

And if you think people are going to dig up their yards to add a ground wire to an existing well, you're on something. And actually I don't know of anywhere that their existing well is not grandfathered to the OLD no ground required codes in force when the well was originally done. They will go with a new 2 wire non grounded pump because there is no way to add a ground wire back to the house.

Now I could add the ground to the drop cable from the pump pigtail to the top of the casing and attach it there BUT, will that pop the breaker if there's another short to ground? (that's a test of [/b]your[/b] grounding knowledge sparky)

The Nec is mandatory if your state has accepted it and adopted it. with the exception of state amendments.

Yeah I know that and that's why I don't reply as if codes cover everywhere in the US as you obviously seem to believe the NEC or CT codes do.

BTW, in case you don't take my test above, you can't build find or design a better GROUND than a metal well casing, and trust me, all groundwater (that's what is in a water well) will conduct electricity to ground.

Question, are you saying that the metal casing is not the same ground as the electric company's meter base, or the power company pole or tower ground or the ground rod ground many houses have or the metal water line ground the NEC requires or the ground used back at the electric generation plant?

[Chris75]

Tell me this, if in troubleshooting a no water call on a well with a 2 wire (no ground wire) submersible pump, and at the top of the casing you undo the wire nuts and check the cable wires back to the switch and all's well but, checking the casing to the drop cable wires to the pump you find a short TO GROUND. How do you explain that? Is that magic or is the pump and cable that is under water grounded some how?

All your reading is continuity.

Your confused on the EARTH and a actual ground, yes I know the NEC does not make it easy, but you have to remember this, that little hole in your receptacles does NOT GO TO THE EARTH. I cannot stress this enough.

And yes, it may not have popped the breaker but tell me where is all the danger unless you're stuck on stupid and fooling around out at the casing not knowing what you're doing with the power on tripping around reading your code book.

This is the scary part, what do you think happens if that pump has a short underground and the breaker does not trip? You end up with a potential shock hazard. Even death. Here is a picture...

What does that short to ground mean to you if not that the electrical cable or motor windings are in contact with the water in the well or the metal casing?

Answer that and we can go on with my education.

An accident waiting to happen.

Now I could add the ground to the drop cable from the pump pigtail to the top of the casing and attach it there BUT, will that pop the breaker if there's another short to ground? (that's a test of [/b]your[/b] grounding knowledge sparky)

That will accomplish nothing, it would have to connect back to the service neutral to open the breaker.

Yeah I know that and that's why I don't reply as if codes cover everywhere in the US as you obviously seem to believe the NEC or CT codes do.

BTW, in case you don't take my test above, you can't build find or design a better GROUND than a metal well casing, and trust me, all groundwater (that's what is in a water well) will conduct electricity to ground.

Your right, it will conduct electricity, but at a high impedance, which will NEVER open the circuit breaker and clear the fault... this is the danger.

Question, are you saying that the metal casing is not the same ground as the electric company's meter base, or the power company pole or tower ground or the ground rod ground many houses have or the metal water line ground the NEC requires or the ground used back at the electric generation plant?

The whole time buddie! Look at it this way, ground rods and other grounding electrodes we install are only for lighting and surges from higher voltage lines, the actual ground wire on a light fixture or receptacle actually tie back to the system neutral, this is what allows the circuit breaker to open during a fault, now sure, we bond the ground rods and such to the system neutral, but it does nothing in terms of protecting us during a fault.


Here is another picture to study, this one actually involves a service without a neutral, but it may help you understand that the earth does nothing in relation to circuit breakers. Picture the motor shown, a well casing with a well pump that has a ground fault.

[Chris75]

Grounding and Bonding are very hard for people to understand, even electricians.... alot of it has to do with the wording in the Nec. but either way, education is the only answer. And I apologize to the OP for disrupting his thread.

[Chris75]

Okay, let me show you a picture of a control box I came across working in the field....



They didnt have enough conductors for the pump, so they used the ground wire that normally protects people from electric shocks as the extra wire they needed.

If a ground fault were to ever occur in the well pump, the breaker would never open, and anyone walking in the yard could be seriously hurt or killed.

[Gary Slusser]

Yeah you want the breaker to trip. Due to the newest code my guess is you'll have that on all wells in another 25-50 years.

In the mean time... Most if not all well owners will know when there is an electrical short to ground or other problems in there submersible pump well system because they won't have any water.

Anyone working on any electrical system should know to turn the power off before working on it and especially a submersible well pump.

I see that Meyers box, I always looked for that kind of thing when I opened switch covers, control boxes or pulled pumps etc.. And I've found some; and life went on.

[Chris75]

Yeah you want the breaker to trip. Due to the newest code my guess is you'll have that on all wells in another 25-50 years.

Art 250 has been around for a long time, get over it... you just cannot comprehend the logic of it...

In the mean time... Most if not all well owners will know when there is an electrical short to ground or other problems in there submersible pump well system because they won't have any water.

Are you that stubborn? Who says a ground fault is going to cause a lose of water? The breaker is certainly not going to trip.

Anyone working on any electrical system should know to turn the power off before working on it and especially a submersible well pump.

I would hope so.

[Gary Slusser]

ummm so tell me, if your "ground fault" doesn't cause a noticeable problem along the lines of no water, what IYO would?

How much experience do you have troubleshooting water well pumps?

[Chris75]

ummm so tell me, if your "ground fault" doesn't cause a noticeable problem along the lines of no water, what IYO would?

How much experience do you have troubleshooting water well pumps?

You dont understand grounding and bonding, I tried teaching you, you refuse to listen, nothing else I can do for you. If you actually just listened to me instead of getting defensive because I commented about a dangerous situation, we both could have learned something, but its a two way street. and you live on a one way road.

[nhmaster]

GFCI circuts detect leakage to ground, not leakage to neutral. You can dead short a gfci across the hot and nuetral and never trip the gfci circut.

[Gary Slusser]

You dont understand grounding and bonding, I tried teaching you, you refuse to listen, nothing else I can do for you. If you actually just listened to me instead of getting defensive because I commented about a dangerous situation, we both could have learned something, but its a two way street. and you live on a one way road.

All you've done since you showed up here accusing me of killing someone is to portray yourself as all knowledgeable while personally attacking and quoting scripture from the latest version of THE CODE.

I think the next submersible pump water system you do any electrical troubleshooting on will be your first. And don't do as illustrated in those cartoons you posted; take an experienced pump guy or driller with you to supervise.

An observation, the way you go on about "SCARY" says you may not show up if you were 'invited' out on a call. But I think you really need more hands on field work and to learn to listen; I was talking about an existing 2 wire pump, not new construction.

BTW, I do know the difference between grounding and bonding. And I also know that existing 2 wire sub pumps do not have or require either, and I've known about the new codes requiring grounding to the well casing and requiring all submersibles to be grounded. But I don't recall anything about bonding either of them.

[valveman]

Ground wires on submersible pumps are a very recent addition. For 50 years before the addition of the ground wire, I do not know of anyone who was electrocuted because of it. I also know of a lot of submersibles that show a ground fault, and continue to run. Of course they would not still be running if they were connected to a GFCI. Gary's stubbornness comes from the fact that he knows full well that a submersible may run many years after showing a ground fault. You just need a breaker that won't trip on ground fault.

How you ground a cistern with a submersible pump is another story but, if you want a dependable supply of water, don't use a GFCI.

[nhmaster]

Yep, but once again the old Liability issue rears it's ugly head. If you by pass it and the one in a million circumstance happens, wooops there goes your house.