submersible pump electrical requirements/holding tanks

I need some advice as to how a submersible pump should be wired in a holding tank for potable water that is located in the basement.

The issue I have is that the manufacturer dictates that this submersible pump and separate solenoid/float assembly be plugged into a duplex outlet that is on a GFCI.

The issue becomes that a certain percentage of these units experience nuisance trips that inconvenience my customers and cause me headaches. Sometimes the GFCI is bad, sometimes there is a tiny amount of "leakage" that the GFCI is detecting and trips (as designed to do), and other times there is no apparent cause for the trip.

After discussing this matter with a well pump installer, he claims it should just be on a duplex without the GFCI (makes sence since traditional well pumps in the hole are not on a GFCI). He also claims that with his experience, it is not unusual for a submersible pump to have stray voltages or static charges. He suggests though that if I do this that a grounding rod should be installed outside and connected to the outlet pipe (driving up costs on an installation).

My electrician cannot offer any advice how to properly ground this unit and explain to me why a pump in the hole is ok without a GFCI but it is not ok in a holding tank.

Any advice or direction you can provide would be appreciated. I really want to do what is right and safe for the customer.

The manufacturer's lawyers may have told them to put that requirement in the installation manual. Or the manufacturer may know that the pump is susceptible to leakage, which comes from poor or failed insulation.

You could put an alarm on the circuit consisting of a small relay (solid state or electromechanical) with the coil or control circuit on the GFCI-protected side of the receptacle and power to the alarm supplied from the unprotected input side of the GFCI receptacle.

The relay would be connected so that the alram would go off on loss of power on the GFCI side of the receptacle.

The alarm will not sound on a power failure or a circuit breaker trip because those failures would also remove power from the alarm.

You could get a pump that is directly connected to the circuit without a receptacle. I'm not aware that such a pump would require a GFCI in the circuit.

Bob
Thanks for the response. There isn't any problem knowing when the GFCI trips, last night a person was taking a bath ... all lathered up and the water stopped. I know the code states a single outlet in the basement that is dedicated need not have a GFCI, however, a duplex is another story. Maybe this is why the GFCI requirement or maybe it is a CYA. Could you please explain why a pump that is hard wired, would not be any less dangerous if there was electrical leakage or a short? I could easily cut the plugs off and have the electrician hard wire them into a J-box.
Thanks.

A lot of the requirement for GFCI protection is based on the risk if someone plugs in a piece of equipment that is not properly grounded and is within reach of a place that the person may touch a grounded item.

I am not aware of any requirement for GFCI protection of hard-wired equipment EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF HOT TUBS, SPAS, POOLS, AND THE LIKE.

I have not seen any submersible pumps for water service with factory-attached cords. They may exist but I haven't seen them. Modifying the cord of a factory assembly to connect it in a way contrary to the installation instructions would probably invalidate the UL listing. However, there are lots of pump that could be use that are intended to be hard-wired.

A submersible pump in a well is grounded even if it doesn't have the required ground wire.

It is possible to pump from a cistern with a pump external to the cistern.

Thanks for your input Bob. I spoke yesterday with a guy who installs the same equipment on the other side of the state and was having the same problems. He eliminated the GFCI and is now using a duplex in its place. He has put the duplex on the ceiling to work with the code since this is a duplex and in the basement. I think I will take the same route.

99k said:

Thanks for your input Bob. I spoke yesterday with a guy who installs the same equipment on the other side of the state and was having the same problems. He eliminated the GFCI and is now using a duplex in its place. He has put the duplex on the ceiling to work with the code since this is a duplex and in the basement. I think I will take the same route.

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Just to add my 2 cents, if the GFCI is tripping there is a problem with your equipment, or wiring error. Let me ask you this, if you didnt have GFCI protection do you feel this a safety hazard with current flowing anywhere it wants to? For anyone to find by accident.

Bob NH said:

A submersible pump in a well is grounded even if it doesn't have the required ground wire.

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I would like you to prove that to me.

99k said:

I need some advice as to how a submersible pump should be wired in a holding tank for potable water that is located in the basement.

The issue I have is that the manufacturer dictates that this submersible pump and separate solenoid/float assembly be plugged into a duplex outlet that is on a GFCI.

Click to expand...

Then you are required to plug your equipment into a GFCI protected receptacle. Also, the 2008 NEC has removed just about all the exceptions for single rounds and such, so your only choice will be to install a GFCI receptacle.

99k said:

The issue becomes that a certain percentage of these units experience nuisance trips that inconvenience my customers and cause me headaches. Sometimes the GFCI is bad, sometimes there is a tiny amount of "leakage" that the GFCI is detecting and trips (as designed to do), and other times there is no apparent cause for the trip.

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Yes, and its also telling you, you have a problem. Do not ignore this problem.

99k said:

After discussing this matter with a well pump installer, he claims it should just be on a duplex without the GFCI (makes sence since traditional well pumps in the hole are not on a GFCI).

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He is wrong, and does not understand how a GFCI works. And the NEC requirements of specific GFCI locations.

99k said:

He also claims that with his experience, it is not unusual for a submersible pump to have stray voltages or static charges. He suggests though that if I do this that a grounding rod should be installed outside and connected to the outlet pipe (driving up costs on an installation).

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And what is this going to accomplish?

99k said:

My electrician cannot offer any advice how to properly ground this unit and explain to me why a pump in the hole is ok without a GFCI but it is not ok in a holding tank.

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Time to hire a new electrician.... The reason a well pump does not require GFCI protection is because they have a EGC ( Equipment Grounding Conductor) unlike appliances which can have broken ground pins or hands on with frayed cords and the like, GFCI's come in very handy as a safety net, but a EGC trumps a GFCI anyday.

Chris75 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob NH

A submersible pump in a well is grounded even if it doesn't have the required ground wire.


I would like you to prove that to me.

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Is a ground rod grounded? A submersible pump has about double the surface area of an 8 ft ground rod, and it is immersed in a mild electrolyte. It may not be enough of a ground to trip a breaker.

Chris75 said:

Yes, and its also telling you, you have a problem. Do not ignore this problem.

He is wrong, and does not understand how a GFCI works. And the NEC requirements of specific GFCI locations.

Time to hire a new electrician.... The reason a well pump does not require GFCI protection is because they have a EGC ( Equipment Grounding Conductor) unlike appliances which can have broken ground pins or hands on with frayed cords and the like, GFCI's come in very handy as a safety net, but a EGC trumps a GFCI anyday.

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So Chris, tell him what to do as the new electrician. He has pumps stopping and can't find out why, so let's hear your fix instead of quoting THE CODE to him, his customer is out of water. But first, do you know for sure the he is under the 2008 NEC?

My way would be to use a float switch in the tank.

Bob NH said:

Is a ground rod grounded? A submersible pump has about double the surface area of an 8 ft ground rod, and it is immersed in a mild electrolyte. It may not be enough of a ground to trip a breaker.

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Bob NH said:

A submersible pump in a well is grounded even if it doesn't have the required ground wire.

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So then the pump is not grounded, ground rods are NOT for tripping overcurrent devices, they are for lightning protection.
When you say that a pump is grounded even if it doesn't have the required ground wire, How is the fault current going to raise high enough to open that breaker? With no low impedance path for the current to get back to the transformer, its a scary situation. Why everyone thinks of the earth as a ground is simply because of the wording of the NEC, its dumb, I agree, but it really causes mass confusion.

Gary Slusser said:

So Chris, tell him what to do as the new electrician. He has pumps stopping and can't find out why, so let's hear your fix instead of quoting THE CODE to him, his customer is out of water. But first, do you know for sure the he is under the 2008 NEC?

My way would be to use a float switch in the tank.

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The 2008 has nothing to do with it, the manufacture requests gfci protection, or do you just do as you want with your installs?

First thing, meg out the pump. 2nd, check the existing wiring for bad wiring, splices, etc.

Now you say requesting where before it was a must...

As an electrician tell him how to fix the problem.

Gary Slusser said:

Now you say requesting where before it was a must...

As an electrician tell him how to fix the problem.

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It is a must, the manufacture request it... and I already said you have to meg the pump as a first suggestion to finding the problem... If you cant get the equipment to run on a GFCI, I suggest you start finding better equipment.

My whole thing with this question is the answers of simply removing the GFCI protection as the answer, when all your doing is masking a real problem, get over it!

Chris75 said:

It is a must, the manufacture request it... and I already said you have to meg the pump as a first suggestion to finding the problem... If you cant get the equipment to run on a GFCI, I suggest you start finding better equipment.

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LOL not following the pump manufacturer's suggestion voids the warranty and gives them a liability out. They couldn't care less that the pump won't run with a GFCI, and now you suggest better equipment when it works as it should without the GFCI. So what brand pump do you suggest?

BTW, I've reread every word you've said in this thread and can't find any mention of "meg the pump" as you claim you've said, so show me where you've done any more than disagree and quote your code scripture and state how scared you are with no GFCI.

Gary Slusser said:

LOL not following the pump manufacturer's suggestion voids the warranty and gives them a liability out. They couldn't care less that the pump won't run with a GFCI

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It wasn't a suggestion as far as I know... The OP made is sound like a requirement, but no matter, if you cant get a piece of equipment to run on a GFCI, then the equipment has a problem, UL will only allow a certain amount of current leakage, witch is about 8-12 times too much if it trips a GFCI, I just dont understand why you think this is okay? I'm completely dumbfounded. Actually, your ignorance to safety seems to follow you around.

Gary Slusser said:

and now you suggest better equipment when it works as it should without the GFCI. So what brand pump do you suggest?

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Not my job to spec out the equipment for the plumber...

Gary Slusser said:

BTW, I've reread every word you've said in this thread and can't find any mention of "meg the pump" as you claim you've said, so show me where you've done any more than disagree and quote your code scripture and state how scared you are with no GFCI.

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read post #12.

If you decide not to follow the manufacturers instructions visa vis the GFCI, and someone gets hurt. Guess who's gonna take away your house and business.

Ours is not to reason why, Ours is but to do or be sued.

Well this a great dialouge.

Chris, thank you for updating me on the 2008 code change for a single plug recepticle ... this explains why I was in a house on Monday and saw they put the refrig on a GFCI in the kitchen (I still don't like it).

Here are some more tidbits of info. The manufacturer informed me that the submersible (stay-rite) is not UL approved and was the reason they specified a GFCI. Comments please ... because I assumed everything these days was UL approved.

The manufacturer has stated that some installers are going back on callbacks and replacing the GFCI duplex with a standard duplex and changing the breaker to a GFCI breaker. They claim it is more robust with none of the problems of nuisance trips? Comments welcome ... I don't see why there would be a difference?

I also asked the manufacturer to extend the plug lengths so that they could reach a duplex mounted to the ceiling. I guess that is out based on 2008 NEC.

Chris, are you saying voltage leaks in a submersible are not an issue based on the grounding mechanism? So what is the difference if it is in the holding tank?

I also know of a lot of submersibles that show a ground fault, and continue to run. Of course they would not still be running if they were connected to a GFCI. Gary's stubbornness comes from the fact that he knows full well that a submersible may run many years after showing a ground fault. You just need a breaker that won't trip on ground fault.

How you ground a cistern with a submersible pump is another story but, if you want a dependable supply of water, don't use a GFCI.

I think UL listing is a joke. They test to see what it takes to burn or blow something up. Some things don't get UL listed because they can't blow them up. Things that are UL listed have to charge more for their product to cover the high yearly cost of the UL listing. UL is a private company, not a government organizations. They are out to make a profit, and making you think that things that are not UL listed are dangerous, is their best tool.