How many neutral conductors do I need?

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Alectrician

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Code says only one circuit can be run to the shed. All the info is above.
 

JWelectric

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Okay I agree that it is the disconnect that 225.39 is addressing instead of the circuit itself but that don’t change the fact that only one circuit is allowed by 225.30 or the disconnect outlined in 225.31 or the fact that the disconnect must be service rated per 225.36.
This building will also be required to have its own electrode system as outlined in 250.32 as well.

What you all are telling this poor guy is nothing short of wrong in the fact that he is to supply a sub panel with several different circuits or for that matter feeding the building with more than one circuit.
 

Old Coot

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Thanks all for the information; it's been an experience hearing from each of you. And again, apologies for initial poor explanation of what I'm trying to do.

Yes, I'm going to do it anyway but using two neutral conductors as suggested. If I sound stubborn, here's why:

Apparently if I was simply running the new 240V outlet and the two 120V outlets from the subpanel within the same structure (either using NM behind drywall or conduit if exposed) I would be "legal" even if the distance was much greater than 20 feet. I'm also guessing that that "legality" probably would extend to a shed attached to the structure holding the subpanel. So why is it all of a sudden "illegal" (or hazardous) if all the wiring is in conduit (buried well below code requirements)simply because there's a bit of open space between the structures.

I'll defer to anyone who says what I'm going to do is "illegal", but can someone get it into my thick head why it is either illegal or hazardous?
 

Mikey

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So could someone give me a step-by-step guide, with NEC citations, as to how to proceed if I want to have 1 20A 240V circuit, and 2 20A 120V circuits, with a maximum load of 24A total, in an unattached shed 50' from the house?
 

Speedy Petey

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So could someone give me a step-by-step guide, with NEC citations, as to how to proceed if I want to have 1 20A 240V circuit, and 2 20A 120V circuits, with a maximum load of 24A total, in an unattached shed 50' from the house?
The ONLY way to do this legally is by installing a sub-panel, so answering your questions "as asked" would be non-compliant and dangerous.
 

Alectrician

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can someone get it into my thick head why it is either illegal or hazardous?

I don't think you will get an answer to this. I am always interested to hear input though. Another person's perspective can be enlightening. My guess is that the code was written for larger structures bacause it make sense to have a separate system for a sepatate building.

It applies to a shed or garage because there are no exceptions written in re: size.

If I were doing the work, it would be almost just as easy to put a sub at the shed and split off from there so I'd avoid the liability and comply with code.


answering your questions "as asked" would be non-compliant and dangerous.

Well....non compliant anyway.


Just run a sub.


3/4 PVC. 18" deep from your house panel to the shed sub. Strap it coming up the wall.

Pull in three #8 THWN (two blacks and a white) and one #10 green. Colored tape is also not compliant....but that's a whole nother thread.

Terminate the ground wire in a ground bus kit that will screw to your panel enclosure. Make sure the neutral bus is isolated from the enclosure. Terminate the other end on a 2 pole 50 amp breaker. The ground and neutral wil go on the same bus if the panel is the service. Look and see how the other circuits are terminated.

Run your 120 and 240 circuits from the new sub.


Or stick with plan A.
 
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Mikey

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The ONLY way to do this legally is by installing a sub-panel, so answering your questions "as asked" would be non-compliant and dangerous.
No, step one in the answers is "You need to install a subpanel." Now, go on to step 2...
 

Mikey

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Pull in three #8 THWN (two blacks and a white) and one #10 green. Colored tape is also not compliant....but that's a whole nother thread.

Terminate the ground wire in a ground bus kit that will screw to your panel enclosure. Make sure the neutral bus is isolated from the enclosure. Terminate the other end on a 2 pole 50 amp breaker. The ground and neutral wil go on the same bus if the panel is the service. Look and see how the other circuits are terminated.

Run your 120 and 240 circuits from the new sub.


Or stick with plan A.

Sounds good, but drawing from NEC cites above,

Why not a 60A breaker?

Why not a grounding electrode at the shed?
 

Chris75

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So could someone give me a step-by-step guide, with NEC citations, as to how to proceed if I want to have 1 20A 240V circuit, and 2 20A 120V circuits, with a maximum load of 24A total, in an unattached shed 50' from the house?

Art 225. is a pretty short and easy section to follow, check it out.
 

Speedy Petey

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No, step one in the answers is "You need to install a subpanel." Now, go on to step 2...
No.

Even someone as loving and patient as me gets tired of holding DIYer's hands through jobs they are not knowledgeable enough to do.

If you need "a step-by-step guide" to installing a sub-panel maybe it's a job better left to a pro.
I don't ask my accountant for a a step-by-step guide to doing my taxes. SHE is the pro, I let her do them.

If I am wrong about you sorry, there is a lot of good (and some not so good) information out there. You just need to figure out which is which.
 

Alectrician

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You still need a grounding electrode system. unless of course you only ran 1 circuit out to the structure.

I thought I learned from the message boards that no ground rod was needed if there was no piping that connected the structures. My bad.


Even someone as loving and patient as me gets tired of holding DIYer's hands through jobs they are not knowledgeable enough to do.

Heh heh....good one. When I hear "loving and patient" I automatically think of you. You might want to take a break from the DIY boards and go to your happy place. :)


BTW, I think the guy could handle the job.
 
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Mikey

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If you need "a step-by-step guide" to installing a sub-panel maybe it's a job better left to a pro.
I don't ask my accountant for a a step-by-step guide to doing my taxes. SHE is the pro, I let her do them.
Interesting parallel. Just as the tax code is pretty useless in helping someone prepare his taxes, the NEC is pretty useless in guiding someone through even simple electrical work. Kind of like using a dictionary to learn a foreign language.

There are lots of DIYers out there who are perfectly capable of following clear directions, and those who like to know the code which resulted in those directions deserve extra credit, IMHO. This forum could be a valuable resource to provide that guidance.

Having said that, even I am appalled at some of the ignorance displayed in the questions asked...
 
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