Any experience with lead pans? Live in NYC

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jerseygirl04

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Hi-

I live in nyc and, although it's antiquated, I have to have my contractor build my tiled shower floor base using a lead pan. It is required per code in the city. I am discovering that my contractor isn't the most skilled in the tiling department and I don't necessarily trust his abilities making this perfectly watertight. All my internet searches for installing a lead pan only come up with stories of people removing one to put in a PVC pan. There is nothing out there describing the necessary steps to fasten the drain to the pan, building the preslope, getting the pan to lie on the preslope when it's such a tough material (unlike the pvc), etc. I just want to ensure he's taking the proper steps and not cutting corners that will cost me down the road. He knows that grout and tile and deck mud/mortar are not waterproof but insists that I won't have a problem with a flat lead pan, sloped mortar on top and tile on top of that. I feel unsure about that given all I've read about the pvc method and the idea of water seeping to the pan and not draining, leading to mold etc. Does anyone have experience putting in lead pans they can share? I appreciate the help.
 

Jadnashua

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The national plumbing codes all require the waterproof layer to be sloped. Local areas can ammend them, but a flat pan is silly, especially made of lead when modern materials work better and last longer. Have you taken this up over at www.johnbridge.com? I'm pretty sure they've had some success in NYC without using a lead pan. Check them out.

Your plumber is totally wrong about having the waterproofing layer flat on the floor. Water will accumulate under the tile. Eventually, contaminants will lower the pH, and the water will start to grow nasty things - it will start to smell like a swamp. This can take years, depending on use, but unless used very infrequently, will happen. In the interim, it will be hard to stop mildew, since things will be perpetually wet. A properly done pan won't leak, but it doesn't mean it's right if it is flat. Most codes refer to the TCNA (Tile Council North America) handbook which lists numerous alternative ways to build a shower - none of them have a flat pan. As I understand it, the thick lead pan is not designed to be shaped to conform to a sloped mortar bed, and because of its properties, it would be hard to get it to do that and not have any gaps. Gaps are death to tile since they allow flex.
 

jerseygirl04

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thanks

I was beginning to wonder if I'd get any answers... i think the experience here is likely too "young" to know the in's and out's on working with lead pans. EVERYONE does PVC now but my stupid city insists on lead. I agree people probably have done the newer liners here but they are not in line with the code. I started at the john bridge forum and they suggested i also ask here ;). I am going to show the contractor this thread.
 
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Geniescience

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under a toilet, the drain is made of lead. The first elbow. The piece weighs five pounds.

If he can connect lead to lead, he can use that.

Four flat triangles of sheet lead can make a square pan with slope to the center where the four triangular pieces meet. Assuming you have a preslope to lay the lead on top of.

David
 

jerseygirl04

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is that what was traditionally done to get the slope? Or is that a solution you came up with? I want to get all my facts right because I'm going to have a battle on my hands getting this job done with a sloped pan made of lead that no one (plumber and contractor) seems to know how to do....
 

hj

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Four flat triangles of sheet lead can make a square pan with slope to the center where the four triangular pieces meet. Assuming you have a preslope to lay the lead on top of.

that would also make the worst lead pan in history. A lead pan is made of ONE SINGLE piece of lead, bent to fit with folded corners and the tops of the folds soldered to prevent capillary attraction from letting water out. The lead will conform to any slope, although the majority were installed on the flat subfloor.
 

jerseygirl04

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So , HJ , what's a girl to do? My contractor is saying it's fine to have a flat pan with sloped mortar and also tile on top but this is contrary to the idea that the pan must be sloped too for proper water drainage as water gets through the mortar to the pan over time. I just want my shower to be done right! I don't want to fight them if what they suggest is OK. I am confused as to what I should insist upon
 
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Toolaholic

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TILE Supply house has a slope kit we cut to size with a utility knife. Your plumber is wrong ,find another ! NY CLOSED MIND SET !!!!:mad:
 

hj

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The plumber does not put the preslope in, and I have NEVER installed any pan with a preslope, so I am with your plumber on this, as long as the drain fitting is flush with the floor so it does not create a dam around it.
 

Master Plumber 101

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I agree with hj, the pan lays on a flat surface and everything above is sloped to drain.You also want to make sure the pan sides extends at least 6"(Wisconsin state code) above the floor against the walls. If your plumber is not sure how to put the pan it's probably because any job he's been on the tile contractor has done the install.(Not uncommon)
 

Jadnashua

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A pan flat on the floor does not meet the national codes, local practices aside. Tile and deck mud (mortar) are not the waterproof layer. The fact that lots of people do it that way does not make it right, just easier. Almost impossible with lead to do a good sloped layer. Perpetuating this is silly. In the desert in AZ, you might get away with it. In many places in the US, you are just asking for trouble. Since when does water flow uphill? You need slope, and the water that WILL migrate below needs slope to move to the drain (a typical shower drain has weep holes down below the surface that must be kept unblocked to handle the moisture that does get underneath), otherwise, some will just sit there until it can evaporate (and that can take awhile since the tile is pretty good, but not perfect, waterproof layer).

You can argue that's the way you've been doing it forever all you want, but you can't trump physical laws. Those physical laws are backed up by the national codes and the Tile Council of America that tests and sets the standards for much of them which relate to building tiled showers. That's like putting in a drain that is horizontal or back sloped...yes, it might work for awhile, but eventually, you'll have problems. At least that part is isolated from your nose by the trap...a festering shower pan loaded with stagnent water will not be.
 

Master Plumber 101

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There has only been one suggestion on how to slope a lead pan (SAND!) If your in a residential home,apt,condo how do suggest other than sand sloping the pan. You would have to drop the subfloor or build the shower up more than you would want to.:mad::mad::mad:
 

Jadnashua

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The hassle with sand is while putting the lead on top, you would not be assured of having a nice smooth, complete coverage. While stiff, if there was a void underneath, the mudbed on top might be compromised. Personally, knowing what I do know about showers from research and study of the TCNA handbooks, a workshop, and discussions, I'd never use a lead pan today to make a new shower. When dealing with tile, 100% support is very important, and with lead, it would be hard to get that unless it was flat on the floor. This, in my view, means it should no longer be used, since you can't get a reliable shower made to current specs out of it without inordinate skills. Much easier to do with a pvc liner. Unless using a surface membrane like Kerdi or those available from Latticrete, and several others, the pan must be made up of a preslope, liner, setting bed, then tile. The waterproof layer MUST be sloped. Depending on the subfloor, the preslope thickness varies, from being essentially zero at the drain over concrete slab, to 1-1/4 or maybe a little less over plywood. Then, you add your setting layer which also needs thickness to survive.

If using a surface membrane, the preslope becomes the setting bed after the membrane is applied, so this requires a special drain that can accept the membrane and seal the preslope from moisture since there is nothing underneath, and no weep holes to allow moisture to escape. Using a surface membrane allows the lowest height finished surface of any methods, and because so much is shielded from any possible moisture intrusion, dries out the fastest of any available method.
 

Toolaholic

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I posted this question on the Ridgid site,to gain some more thoughts.
Mastrerplumb ,a N.Y. plumber, gave the sand slope, drain notch cut, info. As a carpenter plumber I would do a plywood floor in 4 pieces pitched 1/4" to drain. I have done this in the past before slope kits. I do all My own framing,plumbing and tile. I have 2 MK saws. this makes life easy for Me. Both IRC AND UPC require a 1/4" slope UNDER tile IRC 2709.1 UPC 412.6 Sounds like NY City has their own amendment on this. good luck Tool
 

hj

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Anyone who says lead cannot conform to a sloped subfloor has NEVER worked with lead. It is VERY pliable and will conform to any slope, even greater than a copper one can.
 
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