Pressure switch problem or something else???

Pressure switch problem - 2sec motor start, 20sec pause with power

Hi guys,

All of a sudden, I noticed my pressure on reservoir has changed its behavior. I noticed this when taking my shower. Before I had "normal" pressure when talking shower, after 3-5min, the pressure of water in shower would increase, and stay stronger. This was always a sign to me that my pump was "on".

Before:
When water pressure drops to 40PSI, in seconds in would bring water + pressure to 65PSI in seconds.

Today:
When water pressure drops to 40PSI, I hear water + pressure run for 2 seconds, and pause for 20 seconds, and repeat till it hits 65PSI. When it runs for 2 seconds, PSI will increase by about 2PSI, therefore to from from 40PSI to 65PSI, it could take about 6 to 10min.

Please let me know how to start my diagnostics?

Could it be a bad pressure switch? Motor problem? Pump problem? A short in wire (from switch to motor) therefore shutting off automatically after 2 seconds and trying again in 20 seconds?

Thanks...
Sergio

if the pressure switch is opening and closing when it is doing this, you have a busted bladder in the tank.

With an empty tank and the pump off the tank pressure needs to be 2lbs. below the pressure swith cut in pressure. Normally cut out is 20 lbs. over cut in.

Check tank pressure. empty tank, 2lbs. below cut in pressure and NO Water at the air valve.
Check the little copper or plastic line that runs to the pressure switch (they get clogged and so can the pressure switch, so if the switch is screwed directly into the tank tee it can be plugged up there also. The pressure switch contacts should also be clean and not too deeply pitted and aligned. Check for voltage at both sides of the contacts. If all that doesn't solve the problem then there may be an intermittant break in the pump wiring or the pump motor.

valveman, the pressure switch is connected (closed??) at all times, so it should be sending the power to motor. Not sure why motor is going starting for 2 seconds, and then stopping for 20 seconds in a repeat fashion. Once reservoir hits the cut-off setting (60psi), the contacts are then disengaged (openned??).

All this happenned after emptied my water in reservoir and get rid of all sediment and orange water.

Nhmaster, thanks for pointers.

I will try to post a picture of my setup so you can have better idea.

Ciao..
Sergio

pictures of install

Guys, here are some pictures of install, let me know if this makes sense.
I had a local guy pass by to check it out, and this is really weird.

Motor: Grundfos, Model 79952103, 0.75hp, 2 wire, RPM 3450, 230v
Pump: Berkeley B10P4MS07231 0.75hp, 10GPM, 230v, 60hz

Sergio

I am afraid the thermal overlaod in the motor is tripping. It usually takes more than 20 seconds to reset. Check to see if it is pulling amps while this is happening, or if there is no power going to the motor, even though the pressure switch is closed.

What's with the lake water supply? You can't do that it's illegal to cross connect the well with the lake water. There is a possibility of the lake contaminating the aquifir.

And the problem here is the pump motor going off on re-set. Put an amp probe on it when it's starting and runnign and see what it's pulling for amps.

Guys, thanks for replies.

I just talked to my electrician and he thinks that the fuses in panel may be weak therefore not giving full amperage to motor. Electrician thinks that since I pulled the fuses from lake panel to well panel 4-6 times, this may have damaged or weakened the fuses.

He asked me to install fuses to each panel (lake + well), and monitor the results.

As for lake water and well water sources, they do not mix since I have check valves for each source. My goal is to be primary on well water, and use lake water for emergency only. When this would happen I understand that I would have to disinfect all water lines inside house and empty reservoir.

I will keep you all posted on this.

Thanks...
Sergio

Pressure switch ok and fuses ok

Guys,

Here is the update:

1. We bypassed the pressure switch to see if problem still exists by going to a direct connection, and yes the motor still runs for 2 seconds only and then restarts after 20 seconds repeatedly

2. We replaced fuses, and problem still exists.

We are planning to take boat in lake and do a visual investigate motor/pump.

Let me know if you have any ideas before I pull motor/pump out of lake.

Thanks for your support!
Sergio

valveman said:

I am afraid the thermal overlaod in the motor is tripping. It usually takes more than 20 seconds to reset. Check to see if it is pulling amps while this is happening, or if there is no power going to the motor, even though the pressure switch is closed.

Click to expand...

Cut the wires at the splice to the motor. Check motor for a short. Then check back the other way to see if the wire has a short.

toolfool

Sounds like something in motor is thermo-cycling. At connection in motor, motor windings, nervous thermal-overload...

thermo-cycling???

What does thermo cycling mean? Can this be fixed by a professional? What are the estimated costs? My motor is a Grundfos SP4.
Thanks...
Sergio

SergioMastro said:

Guys, thanks for replies.

I just talked to my electrician and he thinks that the fuses in panel may be weak therefore not giving full amperage to motor. Electrician thinks that since I pulled the fuses from lake panel to well panel 4-6 times, this may have damaged or weakened the fuses.

He asked me to install fuses to each panel (lake + well), and monitor the results.

Click to expand...

The idea of "fuses in the panel may be weak therefore not giving full amperage to motor" is an idiotic fairy tale.

Your electrician is an idiot or he thinks you are an idiot. In either case, you should get a new electrician.

Usually when a thermal overload in a motor trips, it is because the motor has cycled on and off until it is at it's limit of useful life. The bearings are worn and the sealed windings have swelled, until the motor is pulling more amps than it can handle, so the overload trips. You will have to get it out where it can be inspected to see what the problem is. Most likely you need a new motor. The SP4 Grundfos is a great pump that they no longer make. The pump end will probably be fine, you just need a new motor. Then you have to reduce the cycling on and off of the pump to make it last longer next time. Cycling on and off kills more pump systems than anything. Every time you double the size of the pressure tank, you cut the cycling in half. Using a Cycle Stop Valve will eliminate cycling during long term water use, works with small pressure tanks, makes your pump system last longer, and delivers "constant pressure" to the house.

toolfool

If you disturbed and degraded an electrical connection to the lake-pump while you were house-keeping, it could indeed pinch off some volts to the motor out there. Low volts will keep it from starting quickly, which will overheat it. Before you pull the pump, and have to take the good advice of valve-man, try this: Read volts, while pump is trying to run. First read them at the line-side of fuses. Should be around 240vac or whatever the house supply is. Then the load side. Then at the pump switch, and on toward the pump to the last place you can read it with out getting wet. A low voltage - under load remember - indicates a poor connection/bad component between there and the last good voltage you read. If this does not make sense, then your electrician, idiot or otherwise, should make this test for you before you pull the pump. If your electrician really is an idiot, remind him to pull the fuses out before he pulls up the pump, won't you?

Thanks for good pointers

Guys,

I just read my troubleshooting manual, and it has interesting information on insulation resistance (ohm value):

2,000,000 or more
New Motor

1,000,000 or more
Used Motor which can be reinstalled in the well

500,000 - 1,000,000
A motor in reasonably good condition

20,000 - 500,000
A motor which may have been damaged by lightning or with damaged leads. Do not pull the pump for this reason

10,000 - 20,000
A motor which definitely has been damaged or with damaged cable. The pump should be pulled and repairs made to the cable or the motor replaced. The motor will still operate, but probably not for long.

less than 10,000
A motor which has failed or with completely destroyed cable insulation.
The pump must be pulled and the cable repaired or the motor replaced.
The motor will not run in this condition.

I will also verify
. voltage supply (voltmeter)
. current measurement with the use of a anmeter for proper amp draw
. winding resistance (ohmmeter)

I have not switched from Lake-Pump to Well-Pump yet. I will probably to this switch this weekend.

My well water is too "orangy" so I will probably purge the well water outside by disengaging connection at pitless adapter and let water run outside for a few hours.

Thanks for all your support!
Sergio

The idea of "fuses in the panel may be weak therefore not giving full amperage to motor" is an idiotic fairy tale.

Click to expand...

I fully agree with BobNH on this. This guy should go back to school.

Question: Does the other Pump work right? Or haven't you used it because of the orangie water? They both get their electric from the same source, so if one works and the other doesn't; that would be an indicator of some sort.

bob...

A fuse either works or it doesn't.

You are running a high risk of cross contamination between the lake and well water. A regular check valve is not sufficient to prevent that. The only approved way to d prevent cross contamination is a double back flow prevention device; a fancy double check valve.

Since I do not see or hear of any water treatment equipment being used to treat the lake or well waters, IMO, you would be much better off if you undid the lake stuff and installed an iron filter or water softener to remove the iron and such from the well water.

You could have something sucked up against the pump's inlet in the lake or you could have a splice shorted out in the lake and/or the pump is running on 120 instead of 240; assuming it is a 240 pump. Or something else wrong with the motor or wet end.

So how did you protect the pump from sucking up stuff it shouldn't?

You should be working with a pump guy or well driller instead of an electrician etc..

Submersible pump Rocket style

Guys,

I will answer some questions asked:

1. How is the pump protected from sucking up stuff it shouldn't (Gary)
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When installed, well plumber build a stand (3 legs on outside) and in middle it had about 4' to 6' of 4" ABS. The whole package is built out of 4" ABS, and the submersible motor/pump is installed in 4" middle ABS pipe. No scuba diver was used, he simply released ABS stand with pump + wires 30ft into lake with use of boat. I have a rope attached to my water dock for when it needs to be ever lifted from bottom of lake for maint.

If I do pull stand/motor from lake I will take picture and post it.


2. Any water treatment? (Gary)
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No water treatment exists at the moment. We have been using this lake water for over 20 years and get our drinking water from country club golf well. Our lake water is tested many times during the year by association and has never had any problems yet.

If you guys ask why then did you get a well???? Well I really thought it would be nice to have my own source of drinking water without going to golf club and fill jugs every week. I soon realized that the well today has more challenges than my current lake water.

I was planning to make my well water primary and lake secondary (backup), but after testing my well water and if I need to install some type of filter system or chlrone system and will revers my decision and make my well the secondary (backup) source of water.


3. Does the other pump (well) work? (speedbump)
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Yes it works. Since water was orange and I had no time to purge water outside, I decided to continue using lake water. During my setup of well connections the problmes arised for lake. I'm wondering if something there happenned that may have caused my lake pump to not function as before.

I'm planning to run well pump today for a few hours.


4. Does the other pump (well) get same power source. (speedbump)
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Yes. From main panel I have a 20a dbl pole breaker and wire running to water room. Then in water room the wire (240v) goes to 1 box (Lake) with fuses, then from box 1 (lake) it goes to box 2 (well). Each box has 2 x 20a fuses. Each box has a arm to put power on or off. Boxes are connected to appropriate pressure switched.

Picture demostrates all this.


I will keep you posted on progress.

What a project this is.

Take care...
Sergio

Lake water and well water mixing?
Sounds like a problem to me...
I'd be very concerned!