Water suddenly shuts off

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cols

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Hi.
We have an 86' well with a submersable pump.
We replaced the pressure tank last year and the pressure switch last week. ;)
Particularly when we run the water from the "irrigation" pipe (doesn't go through the house's filtration system) the water will run and then shut off VERY suddenly. There is NO tapering off at all, just BOOM, stopped.
The pump then turns on (usually) and the tank fills as normal and we can run the water again.
We just bought a check valve, thinking if it is that SUDDEN, it sounds like something is "snapping closed" (like a solenoid) when it shouldn't, but I have read here that maybe we don't even NEED a check valve with our system. :confused:
We "think" we have the pressure tank adjusted correctly, but we feel a bit confused by all of the differing information we are reading.
I know there are many knowlegeable people here and I sure would appreciate any input.
Thanks !
 

Valveman

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Sorry you had to "bump". It sounds like the overload on the motor is tripping out and you run out of water all of a sudden because the bladder tank bottoms out, that is just the way a bladder tank empties. Tripping an overload is not good. The fact that you replaced the pressure tank and switch, and this happens when you are using water outside, makes me think the pump has been cycling on and off until it has hurt the motor. If you have a three wire pump with a capacitor start box, it could just be the start capacitor and/or relay. When the pump won't start, the overload trips, then a few minutes later it just miraculously starts up again when the overload automatically resets.

No matter if it is the starter box or the motor itself, this stuff is destroyed from the pump cycling on and off. When you use water outside, make sure the pump runs continuously. You either have to run a bunch of sprinklers to use up all the water the pump can produce, or you can use a Cycle Stop Valve to vary the pumps flow to match the amount you are using.
 

cols

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Thanks for the reply.
I really appreciate your advice.
We kinda figured we'd killed the pump, but were hoping against hope that we hadn't. :( Big bill ahead, I guess.
I have read about the cycle stop valve and will definitely investigate more.
DH is pretty handy (he's a major appliance service tech) but we don't have any specific knowlege about this kind of well set up.

I guess we're pulling the pump up. Joy. :(:rolleyes:

So, I guess that "irrigation" line should not be used the way we are using it. ie: just to fill a bucket of water
 

Valveman

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Just filling a small bucket a few times is perfectly OK. Leaving something running for long periods of time that isn't enough to keep the pump running continuously, is what kills them. Don't pull the pump until you make sure the control box is good.

But if it is 22 years old, it has probably filled it's last bucket.
 

cols

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Oh, ok, gotcha. So, we haven't really been using that line this year at all except to fill a smallish bucket once a day to water the goats. We haven't been doing any irrigating.
I think if we did cook the pump, we did it last year when we were doing a lot of irrigating and were using hose with too small a diameter. :(

I don't know how old the pump is but the well was drilled in 1994. ;)
I think it would be fairly safe to assume that the pump went in shortly thereafter. So, 14 years old. ??

Contol box. Ok. I'll let DH know to check that first.
I have no idea what it means, but let's hope he does. ;)
Off to google images .....
 

Valveman

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So, 14 years old. ??

Contol box. Ok. I'll let DH know to check that first.
I have no idea what it means, but let's hope he does. ;)

Average life of a submersible is 7 years. That means you have a neighbor somewhere that only got 2 years out of his.

If the wires go directly from the pressure switch down the hole, you probably have motor problems. If there is a box between the pressure switch and well pump, you have a slim chance of it just being a starting capacitor.
 

cols

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Two years. Well, bummer for that neighbour. :(:p

Found the control box. DO NOT tell DH that it was hiding under an old riding helmet that I haven't worn since I was a kid !!! :eek:

Let's cross our fingers that it's the capacitor then, shall we? ;)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for your help.
We never would have found that box if I hadn't gone looking for it and I wouldn't have gone looking for it if you hadn't told me to.
So, thanks.
Even if it IS the pump, at least now we know that we've tried everything else.
 

Leaky Boot

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Average life of a submersible is 7 years. That means you have a neighbor somewhere that only got 2 years out of his.

If the wires go directly from the pressure switch down the hole, you probably have motor problems. If there is a box between the pressure switch and well pump, you have a slim chance of it just being a starting capacitor.

20 to 40 yrs is most common for a submersible to last in my area. Still a few Reda pumps down. And you know how old they are. That's not using switching or speed control other than a pressure switch. My personal wells---21 yrs and still 1000 gallons a day somedays on some days. 6 gallon drawdown. Webtrol with a Franklin. Another with a Sears brand--over 30 yrs so far. A StaRite with 20 yrs at a family members and another member with 28 yrs on a StaRite. All still running.
 

cols

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20 to 40 yrs is most common for a submersible to last in my area. Still a few Reda pumps down. And you know how old they are. That's not using switching or speed control other than a pressure switch. My personal wells---21 yrs and still 1000 gallons a day somedays on some days. 6 gallon drawdown. Webtrol with a Franklin. Another with a Sears brand--over 30 yrs so far. A StaRite with 20 yrs at a family members and another member with 28 yrs on a StaRite. All still running.

WOW ! That would sure be nice. ;)
I know my friend's has been down for 30 years. They never even "think" about their water system. It just chugs along.

No time to check the capacitor last night. :(
DH was glad to hear that there was one more thing to check, though.
Still keeping my fingers crossed that's what it is. (it's hard to type this way)
:p
 

cols

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I just got a phone call from DH, who observed this morning that it takes two or three times of the pump going on/off, on/off, on/off until it finally stays on "normally". When it is doing that quick shut off, the relay shuts off as well.
If the pump cuts out on the high limit, will the relay shut off or should it always stay on whether the pump cuts out of not?
In other words, is the relay cooked?
Thanks !
(off to try to find a full schematic for our control box.....)
 

Valveman

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Sounds like you have water in the air chamber of the tank. The bladder is probably bad. The pump should not cut on and off several times when starting. This can cause it to trip the overload.

Reda pumps were the best. I cut my teeth on them. Major changes were made to the Reda in 1974. The ones made before that were really good. The ones made after that had been de-engineered to last only 5 to 7 years.

They don't make pumps like that anymore. The pumps made today, you have to be very careful of how they are set, and how many times they cycle, to be able to get more than the average 7 years of life.
 

cols

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Sounds like you have water in the air chamber of the tank. The bladder is probably bad. The pump should not cut on and off several times when starting. This can cause it to trip the overload.

So, if we just replaced the tank and the bladder is "bad", what did we do wrong to cause that AND does it mean a whole new tank again? :confused::(

How do we test this? (whether or not it is the tank)
Can we "bleed" the tank and recharge it or ????

I was down there today when my daughter used the water in the house and it did exactly what DH said.
 

Valveman

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New tank? Maybe it just has too much air charge. Air charge should be about 5 PSI less than pump start pressure. Sometimes when the temperature warms up, the air in the tank expands and you have more air than pump start pressure. This will make the switch bounce on pump start. You could also just have the pressure switch too far from the pressure tank, same effect.
 

cols

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Thanks. The new pressure switch is right at the pressure tank.
(pressure tank = 1 year old? ... time flies, could be two?)

I'll ask DH about the pressure in the tank. I was reading about "too much charge" yesterday. While it has been pretty warm here lately, it is COOOOOL :cool: down in that pump house. The pressure tank is in the pump house "basement", which is made of cinderblock. I'd like to live down there when it's hot out ! He is pretty convinced it is not the pressure tank.

Any ideas on his question on the relay?
I heard it yesterday, too. It hums when the pump kicks in and quits when the pump quits.

Can we "jump" the relay to test to see if it is a problem with the pump?

We're going to do some more 'diagnostics' today. Any suggestions as to what to try would be appreciated.
 

cols

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Well, I think we have it solved.
DH replaced the relay and the start capacitor today and VOILA !
Everything ran perfectly.
Let's just hope this does the trick.
THANK YOU so much for your help.
If it weren't for the help we got here, we wouldn't have even looked for that control box because I had it hidden pretty well. :eek:
It is so nice to know that there is a place like this where experts are willing to take the time to give advice to home owners.
So, a big thank you again.
Cross fingers that this does the trick.
Tomorrow the horses get baths and we test it out !!
 
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