Insulating basement hot water pipes

Users who are viewing this thread

Bob in Maine

New Member
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Maine
A basic question.

If I insulate the hot water heating pipes that run from my boiler in the basement to radiators on the floor above, I'll reduce the amount of heat lost from the pipes to the cold basement air.

However, by doing this, I'm effectively removing the main heat source from my basement in the winter which might lead to frozen domestic water pipes or colder floors above.

What's the common wisdom about insulating basment heating pipes?
 

Jimbo

Plumber
Messages
8,918
Reaction score
18
Points
0
Location
San Diego, CA
Where I grew up in MA, we had single pipe steam heat. The pipes running around the basement, just under the joists, were somewhat insulated, but a lot of the joints were not, and some pipes that were replaced over the years with boiler replacements were not. As a result, the basement temp was comfortable all winter! It was not a finished basement, but the laundry was down there, as well as our "toys"....train sets, ping pong, etc.

I am sure that from an energy standpoint, it did not make sense. But gasoline was 22 cents a gallon, and the NG was also cheap. And the celing was not insulated, so I think a lot of heat just rose up to the living area of the house, and contributed to a nice even comfy warmth up there!
 

Bill Arden

Computer Programmer
Messages
584
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
MN, USA
Website
www.billarden.com
1. How deep is the frost line?
If you insulate around the basement border and seal it up any air leaks, the basement will automatically keep it at the ground temperature.

This will also reduce heat loss from the heated pipes by trapping the heat they release into the basement.
 

Bob in Maine

New Member
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Maine
The frost depth here is 48" inches below grade.

The framed floor sits about 2'-6' above grade, so when I stand in the basement, there's about 1'-8" of concrete above grade and another 10" or so of framing above that. The basement floor is about 7'-6" below the framed floor above.

Unfortunately, since the frost line is deep here, nearly all of the soil outside my foundation wall is is subject to freezing temperatures

The basement is unfinished, so I don't care how warm it stays, just as long as the pipes don't freeze.

I'm nervous about insulating the inside of the basement walls for fear of trapping moisture and growing mold. We're pretty close to sea level out here, and the basement tends to be damp.

I agree that sealing all potential air leaks in the basement is a good idea.

My gut feeling is that if I insulate the heating pipes in the basement, enough heat from the story floor above will transfer to the basement (through the pine sub-floor and hardwood finish floor) to keep the water pipes in the basement from freezing, but I'm still not completely sold.
 

D.Smith

New Member
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Georgia
I would think for the most part you would be ok. I remember even in a craw space it would stay above freezing for most of the winters.


For piece of mind you can place a heater set at a 33 degrees in bsmt to protect against freezing.
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,602
Reaction score
1,040
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
heat

The heat you are "losing" in the basement is helping to heat the upper level's floor, so it is not really "lost". If you remove that source of heat, the upstairs radiation will have to operate longer to compensate for it, so your total energy bill may not change, and you will lose the warmer floor and livable basement.
 

mortimer

New Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I don't think that I would insulate the pipes. While the cost should not be an issue, you might a fixing a something that isn't broken.

As an aside, I live in a walk out basement and use a pellet stove to keep it well above freezing.
 

gvernt

New Member
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I Have Insulated my Pipes

A few years ago I insulated my pipes and noticed a drop in the basement temperature. I have three separate hot water zones and once I insulated the pipes the temperature in the basement dropped a few degrees. The coldest I've seen is 58F in the basement and I live in the northern part of New Jersey. My basement is made of cider block walls (1000 sq ft) and I would say the upper two rows of blocks are exposed to the air outside and the remaining part of the basement is underground. My basement ceiling is uninsulated but I am currently installing a new green insulation on the ceiling which is called UltraTouch (recycle jeans), so my basement temperature should drop futher. I'm not really worried about the pipes freezing since my boiler, water heater and dryer give off enough heat. But let see what happenes this winter.
 

Xroad

New Member
Messages
113
Reaction score
0
Points
0
A few years ago I insulated my pipes and noticed a drop in the basement temperature. I have three separate hot water zones and once I insulated the pipes the temperature in the basement dropped a few degrees. The coldest I've seen is 58F in the basement and I live in the northern part of New Jersey. My basement is made of cider block walls (1000 sq ft) and I would say the upper two rows of blocks are exposed to the air outside and the remaining part of the basement is underground. My basement ceiling is uninsulated but I am currently installing a new green insulation on the ceiling which is called UltraTouch (recycle jeans), so my basement temperature should drop futher. I'm not really worried about the pipes freezing since my boiler, water heater and dryer give off enough heat. But let see what happenes this winter.

I am in central Jersey, same situation. Smaller house, 625 sq ft basement. As long as the air temperature is above the temperature of the basement concrete walls and floor, there will be heat loss to them. The greater the difference in temperature, the greater the loss. I insulated the pipes, the air temp is lowered. The risk of pipe freezing is often not colder air temperature but more of air leak. The pipe near the perimeter of the basement or near a window frame run the risk of an air leak stream of cold blast like a blow torch. It is important to seal all air leaks. Insulatig the walls and floor is another big job. Issues of mold is a concern for me as well. Insulation may cause problem. There is also heat loss from the first floor to the basement ceiling. I never insulate the ceiling because I was afraid of the fibeglass flying around. The chopped old denim jeans is a very good idea. I think I will go that route. It should make the floor in the first floor much more comfortable and the basement even colder. Not insulating the hot pipe will make your floor warm but at a cost. I do not believe heating space I am not using. Put in a few electric heating dish in the basement. When you go down there, you will need to turn on the light. Wire the heat dish to turn on with the light.
 
Last edited:

Jimbo

Plumber
Messages
8,918
Reaction score
18
Points
0
Location
San Diego, CA
My gut feeling is that if I insulate the heating pipes in the basement, enough heat from the story floor above will transfer to the basement (through the pine sub-floor and hardwood finish floor) to keep the water pipes in the basement from freezing, but I'm still not completely sold.

Generally, heat does not radiate DOWN.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Heat radiates equally in all directions...convection moves the hotter air up. If heat only radiated up, we'd be in a very bad state without the sun...which way is up anyways? Gravity doesn't affect radiation...
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
If you want to get technical, there is no such thing as cold...it is the absence of heat. Energy levels move to attain equilibrium, all things being equal.
 

Xroad

New Member
Messages
113
Reaction score
0
Points
0
No, heat will be transferred from something hotter to something cooler (law of entropy) but heat RADIATES in all directions equally and is not aware of the temperature of the target.

You are correct, I stand corected. I feel so old, HS and college physics was such a distant past.
 

NHmaster

Master Plumber
Messages
3,176
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
S. Maine
If you don't insulate the basement walls then some of the heat given off by the piping and the boiler is lost to the ground. There are charts somewhere that graph all this. Very confusing but the gist of it is that it is marginally better to insulate the pipes than not. Naturally it would be better to insulate the pipes and the foundation. The energy code requires basement floors to be insulated now also so if you keep the pipes bare in that case you get even more heat migration through the foundation.

I like to insulate all hydronic piping because I want as much of that heat from the boiler, into the baseboard as possible so that I can maintain a set delta t. This makes the boiler and system more efficient. Yes we're talking a few bucks not a fortune but every little bit helps.
 

crater

New Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Isn't a controlled or conditioned space better than a none conditioned space?

opinion of a Certified Green Professional (me)

Insulate your pipes for max efficiency and then tend to the space requirements by conditioning the space(basement)

Also repair air leakage to maximize the efficiency of the space. Types of Air handlers should be able to take care of the humidity(moisture) problem then insulate walls with closed cell styrene insul board if still Leary of moisture.

Thinking of heat loss in this way as "beneficial radiant heat" is crazy.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks