Who's Lying? Well Pump & Tank

If better faucets and a CSV don't fix the problem, then I agree that the ½" lines would need to be larger. However, your pump is already cycling so, you don't need a bigger pump. It will just make the cycling even worse! Just take the top off of one of those faucets and see how small that hole is. You will see what I am talking about. Better faucets will let more water through, the CSV will keep the pressure constant and the pump from cycling, problem solved.

I don't think you can buy the Well X Trol at Lowes. You may buy their Big Box special, but not the Contractors variety. At least Flexcon hasn't caved into the Big Box pressure YET!

bob...

master plumber mark said:

your present tank is woefulley too small to do anything near what you want it to do.... it cant work....

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Cycling is definitely an issue during watering, but at the moment he is looking for more flow at pressure in order to be able to water at all ... and a larger tank would only aggravate (lengthen the duration of) the problem of low pressure outside while water is running and the pump has yet to start once again.

Along the line of what Bob and Valveman have mentioned: I have 3/4" lines plumbed out to 1/2" Woodford spigots with small holes. I hope to fill my 1000-gallon pool in another day or so, and I will have to run hoses from two spigots simultaneously in order to keep my pump from cycling over the course of about 2 hours. My guess is that one hose would be sufficient if not for the restriction in the spigot, and a CSV would certainly stop the cycling either way, of course. But with a CSV and just one of my spigots, my pump would have to run twice as long to fill the pool. Point: First resolve the plumbing problem, then decide about the CSV.

Thanks? Head Spinning.

OK. Lots of opposing opinions now.

I think what I'm hearing is...

1. Replace the pipe lines to the spigots with a larger size.
2. Insert the CSV. (Not sure where. After or before the existing pressure switch?)

Both of which I'll have to get a plumber to do.

Could anyone lead me to a basic diagram, keeping my system (see previous photos) in mind?

Thanks all!

You can fix your outside pressure/flow problem by running a tee off that vertical 1" PVC pipe at your tank out through the wall to a 1" ball valve on the outside of the houseThen put as many 3/4" taps off that line to connect as many hoses as you need. You can do all of that yourself with a few parts that you can get at HD. Total cost of parts will be about $50.

You will be able to use as much water as the pump can deliver and there will be no need for a CSV to prevent cycling. If you want water around the other side of the house you can run 1" black poly pipe along the foundation. You would drain it in the winter.

DumbOnPlumbing said:

OK. Lots of opposing opinions now.

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Not really. It just took a little while for everybody to see a single picture in about the same way.

At the moment, your spigots are likely your biggest restrictions. So, running larger pipe out to them would not be an overall solution.

What Bob has suggested would be relatively simple, inexpensive and well-serving. The only thought I would add is that of placing a second ball valve in the line just inside the outer wall of your house so you can make the end of that new line frost-free. Before freezing weather arrives, close the inner valve and open the outer valve and disconnect everything from it on the outside. At that point, and if it is sloped down just slightly, the last couple of feet of your new line will drain and be safe from freezing temperatures. Before the days of frost-free spigots, pluming to the outside was commonly done that way.

If you do run the 1" line to the outside, do a little testing to see how your pump will respond with one and more sprinklers running. With just one sprinkler running, your pump will likely build to 60 psi and stop ... and that is where a CSV could enter the picture. Two sprinklers running might hold the pump at a steady pressure without it being able to reach 60 psi very easily, and it might not be able to maintain even 40 psi with three or more sprinklers running.

Bigger faucets or a ball valve will let you have more pressure outside. Without the CSV, you will still need to run about 6 of those tractor sprinklers to keep the pump from cycling. With the CSV, you can run just one tractor sprinkler and the pump will not cycle.

If you try to run enough sprinklers to keep the pump from cycling, then you are using all the water the pump will produce, and if you need water in the house, the pressure will be low.

If you use the CSV to keep the pump from cycling, you don't have to run 6 sprinklers, then you are not using all the water the pump will produce, so when you need water in the house, you still have good pressure. However, you still need better faucets to get better pressure to the tractor sprinklers. I have a 60 PSI Cycle Stop Valve at my house, and a tractor sprinkler runs so strong that it will climb the fence if I don't keep an eye on it.

A bigger tank or having to run a lot of sprinklers is not going to solve your problem.

DumbOnPlumbing said:

OK. Lots of opposing opinions now.

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IMO that's because there are a few anti business/salespeople/CSV non well/pump guys here that aren't thinking the problem through.

IF you enlarge the pipe and stop valves you'll get more water outside but, if use water in the house, the pressure will fall throughout the entire system and the sprinklers will use most of the water the pump can deliver while the house will suffer low flow and pressure.

You can't solve this/these problems without a CSV or a constant pressure pump unless you reduce the number of sprinklers and allow the pump to cycle on/off.

So the question you need to answer is what is more important, wearing on the pump with the cycling, not watering as much as you want all at once, or having good flow and pressure in the house when you use water and... when you get all the water to flow outside as you seem to want to, how do you know what effect if any that will have on your well?

If you draw the water down in the well the water quality can be effected, the pump has to pump water from a deeper level and the pressure and flow may decrease, the water may go down to the pump's inlet and allow it to suck air and run dry and ruin the pump while you have no water until you replace the pump, which you may not be able to do and have to hire it done at great expense.

Lush green grass is not that important to me. And in my 65 years, it always led to my having to mow it! And that caused wearing out my mower from the original hand push type (although they were made like a tank and if you didn't let them rust, they probably would last forever) to my late garden tractor. If I ever go back to a house (I live in my motorhome, currently visiting WY) I will spread gravel and paint it green before I'd mow grass. I might have to buy some of that fresh cut grass in a can though.

A CSV shouldn't cost more than $150.

Yes, the irrigating pressure will drop when you use water inside the house. However, that is a short period usage (shower is the longest).

If you put enough irrigation on the system so the pressure is in the upper half of the switch range when only the irrigation is running (for example 50 to 57 psi with a 40/60 switch setting) the following will occur.

1. The pump will not cycle on and off during irrigation because the sprinkler will demand more water than the pump can deliver at shutoff pressure of 60 psi.

2. Let's assume that the occasional inside demand is half of the irrigation flow, which is matched to the pump flow as described in (1.) above. When someone uses water inside (flush toilet, washing machine, shower, . . . ) the pressure will drop, causing less water to be used by the irrigation system for that time, maybe dropping the pressure to 30 to 40 psi, or lower if you are using a lot of water. When the inside use ends the pressure will go back up. Reducing flow for a few minutes on the irrigation cycle is usually not a big deal.

You can put in a CSV. For the CSV to produce the desired effect of maintaining high water pressure inside during those high demands as described in (2.) above, the sprinkler demand must be cut down so that the total demand (sprinklers + inside usage) does not exceed the capability of the pump. If the inside demand is half the capacity of the pump as described in (2.) the system will deliver inside water and sprinkler demand and everything will work as planned.

But you must consider the effect on the irrigation system and the pump when there is little or no inside demand, which is most of the time. The irrigation system is only drawing half the capacity of the pump so the pump capacity will be available for supplying inside demands. Therefore, it must run twice as long to put the same amount of water on the lawn. The CSV keeps the pump from shutting off so it is running twice as long. It uses less power (watts) but it uses more energy (kWhr) to deliver the total amount of water.

There is no right or wrong answer. Both systems will work. The owner can decide what features he wants.

DumbOnPlumbing said:

OK. Lots of opposing opinions now.

I think what I'm hearing is...

1. Replace the pipe lines to the spigots with a larger size.
2. Insert the CSV. (Not sure where. After or before the existing pressure switch?)

Both of which I'll have to get a plumber to do.

Could anyone lead me to a basic diagram, keeping my system (see previous photos) in mind?

Thanks all!

Click to expand...

If that tank is against an exterior wall, you want to run a large pipe from there to the outside, and look to run your hoses from there. And for a 3/4 acre lawn, it will be a lot of hoses. (and you don't skimp on hose diameter, since hoses have large friction losses - and no stringing hundreds of feet of hoses in series, either) - No reason you can't use more of the same plastic pipe we see in the picture. (unless there was some location-specific plumbing code that doesn't want it there in the first place)

I'd expect that enough sprinklers to water 3/4 acres would have flow enough to prevent pump cycling.

Add the necessary plumbing to get that 12 gpm outside without restriction, and see if that doesn't help out. You can always add a CSV later.

The long explanation makes my point. The point being, after you get bigger faucets where the pressure outside is better, you can hire an engineer to oversee the project. They will take everything into consideration. Hoses will have to go, unless you can run an individual hose to each of 6 tractor sprinklers at the same time. Underground lines will need to be added so that each irrigation zone perfectly matches the pump. Even though the engineer would rather have lower pressure to be more efficient, nozzle sizes and number of sprinklers will be sized so that each zone holds the pump at just below the shut off pressure of the pump. In that way you still have "some" pressure left in the house for other things. Either way, underground lines or tractor sprinklers, you will always have to run 6 at a time. You can never run just 5, or 1 sprinkler by itself, and you should time the sprinklers to run during off peak times, so it doesn't effect the pressure when needing water in the house. Then we need to hope that the well can supply enough water to run all 6 sprinklers at the same time. If using this much water draws the well down, then we need to re-engineer the pumping system to match the well. A well test will determine the maximum amount the well will produce. Then a smaller pump will need to be engineered to supply this amount of water at the correct Total Dynamic Head. Of course the irrigation system will need to be totally re-engineered to match the new pump.

Or, you can use a Cycle Stop Valve and run water anyway you want, while enjoying constant pressure in the house as well. Might be less efficient and cost you an extra 5 bucks a month to run water however you see fit but, it drives engineers crazy, instead of the engineering driving you crazy.

As much as one might want to advocate the products they sell, the primary task here is to get the 12 gpm to the outdoors with as little pressure loss as is possible. Then take stock and consider the options. 12 gpm isn't a whole lot, if it has to be spread over a 3/4 acre lawn. Spend a few grand for a lawn sprinkler system, and you don't have to do anything, except write the checks.

Getting 12 GPM to the irrigation with as little pressure loss as possible is what the irrigation specialist sells. Supplying the irrigation as efficiently as possible is what the engineer sells. Letting someone run a few tractor sprinklers, or set up the irrigation to match the yard not the pump, is what CSV sells. The CSV can help the engineer and the irrigation specialist do a better job. They just have to accept it as a helpful tool, and not as an insult to their ability. The CSV is a no-brainer for the home owner who wants to do things their way, still have good pressure, and not hurt their pump.

We each have our specialties, and obviously the first thing the homeowner should do is invest five grand for a lawn sprinkler system, and leave everything else alone. If the delivery of water to a lawn is the priority, then getting the 12 gpm outside without pressure-drop is job one. This follows from the fact that 12 gpm is probably less than one would choose to have on some 3/4-acre lawns, and investing anything, for steady pump operation at lower flows, isn't really going to help the lawn.

Now, for the homeowner's four-figure investment, I would not be adverse to including a CSV if there was any question about pump cycling. Share the wealth, and all that.

Personally I don't think this tractor sprinkler system is going to be used in the middle of the night when the house is not using water.

So I suspect that at times the house will want some of the water and if so then the pressure/flow reduction in the house is going to be a problem.

Also any backwashing or regenerated water treatment equipment will suffer when they need to use water at night if sprinklers are running. That ruins backwashed filters and water softeners.

To me you can engineer and re-engineer it any which way as often as you want, or make the sprinklers dance, but the only true, easiest and least expensive solution is a CSV.

Until the OP returns, and states that there is actually no desire to water the 3/4-acre lawn (they were just running the sprinklers for the fun of it, you see) then this is a lawn-watering problem, with a side order of pump cycling. If you eliminate pump cycling, with low flow and low pressure in the outdoor hoses, you have a happy pump, and an unhappy lawn.

Let's cheer up that lawn with more flow and pressure, and see if the pump cycling doesn't cure itself at the same time. If steady running is achieved at, say, 60 to 70 psi at the pressure tank, then there will be plenty of extra pressure remaining for additional water usage.

One important objection to the installation of a CSV here is that we are still waiting for a 70 psi model to appear in the plastic inline version, and without any alteration of the indoor plumbing, you need higher pressures to overcome the losses in the 1/2-inch copper and hose bibs and hoses.

The zero-cost option is the obvious first choice. Adjust the pressure switch, and be happy the tank has a 100 psi rating, since you can go beyond a 70 psi cutoff.

Boots, just put a 60 PSI CSV after the double check or RPZ and it won't have to make up for the losses in the back flow stuff.

That won't help the OP here, who needs more supply pressure to overcome losses in pipe and hose.

Boots, just put a 60 PSI CSV after the double check or RPZ and it won't have to make up for the losses in the back flow stuff.

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You might need to create some diagrams of this idea, since a CSV in sprinkler supply plumbing would put the well tank and pressure switch upstream of the CSV, which is in none of the diagrams I see. Besides, even without RPZs, there are occasional situations where pressure is needed. Lots of pressure. 60 psi won't cut it.

Boosting from city pressure you could use a back flow first, then the pump, CSV, pressure tank and switch, and on to the irrigation. Pumping from a cistern you would need the pump first, then the back flow, CSV, pressure tank and switch, and on to the irrigation. Either of these ways and the CSV is not having to make up for the friction loss of the back flow device.

The CSV can go much higher in pressure, just not with the plastic valves. The standard 2" valve is adjustable between 25 and 175 PSI. We have some models that have been set as high as 400 PSI.

Sorry, I was thinking only of well pumps, with pressure tanks in home basements, downstream of which is a connection for a sprinkler system. I never would think of any regulation on a city-water booster pump install - it's way too easy to balance the zones for constant running.

I can understand why there might never be a low-head-loss inline CSV with a 70 psi setting, being that it's too close for comfort to the 75 psi rating of older pressure tanks. But it would be about the only kind I'd be likely to ever need.