Who's Lying? Well Pump & Tank

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DumbOnPlumbing

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  • Pump in the well.
  • Myers Hydro-pneumatic pump tank 1/2 HP
  • Inside water pressure fine.
  • Outside always been poor, and we want to increase that.

WholeSystem.jpg


TankLabel1.jpg


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PressureGauge.jpg


We have 3/4 acre with several lengths of hose and watering tractors, but even with one hose and a hand sprayer the pressure is low.

When outside sprinklers run the pump kicks exactly every one minute. The pressure gauge kicks on at 40, rises to 60 and cuts off.

A well company came out to assess for $65. Said my tank bladder is "shot" and they could install a new tank for $650. However another water expert tapped on the tank and said he thought it was ok. I drained the tank and it didn't sound like any water was left in there. I knocked around and it sounded like a hollow bell and I could move the tank easily. Also the water pressure in the house and outside is the same as it ever was. I don't think it's shot.

This company said my pump should run continuously and not shut off while watering outside. They also said I need to run more hoses so the pump doesn't cut off.

Two other companies said I should get a larger tank AND a stronger pump.

  1. Is my tank bladder shot?
  2. Do I need a stronger pump outside?
  3. Should I just get a larger capacity tank so the existing pump doesn't need to run as much?
  4. Comparable size tanks at Lowe's are like $250. $650 seems like I'm being taken for a ride.

THANKS!!!!
 

Speedbump

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This company said my pump should run continuously and not shut off while watering outside. They also said I need to run more hoses so the pump doesn't cut off.

Trust this guy. The others are crooks.

bob...
 

DumbOnPlumbing

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Speedbump?

So are you saying:
1. My current pump is adequate for my 3/4 acre yard?
2. That outputting more water outside by Y connectors, multiple hoses, etc. will keep the pump from cutting off so much?
3. That my tank bladder is or is not shot?
4. What do I do about increasing the water pressure?
5. Do I need a larger tank at all?
6. Doesn't $650 for a 52 gallon tank sound a little high?

Thanks.
 

Leejosepho

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... with one hose and a hand sprayer the pressure is low.

Are you sure it is actually the pressure that is low outside? Do a volume check by comparing how long it takes for the bathtub spigot to fill a 5-gallon pail and compare that result to what an open hose can do outside. Pressure is pressure at whatever point, but you will not get as much actual flow outside if a pipe, spigot, hose or whatever else is either too small or restricted in some other way.

When outside sprinklers run the pump kicks exactly every one minute. The pressure gauge kicks on at 40, rises to 60 and cuts off.

That sounds to me like a flow (size of plumbing) problem, not a pressure problem.

Is my tank bladder shot?

Likely not. If it was, you would not be running water for a minute before the pump starts again.

Do I need a stronger pump outside?

Not likely, unless you need more volume than your present pump can push at a given pressure through whatever kind of plumbing you have.

Should I just get a larger capacity tank so the existing pump doesn't need to run as much?

A larger tank can make a pump run less often, but it will still run just as much as it needs to actually run in order to produce the volume being consumed. I have two tanks in my system so the pump starts less often while someone is in the shower, but that kind of benefit would be insignificant while watering a lawn.
 
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Bob NH

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You should add hoses or sprinklers or put on larger sprinklers so the pump will run continuously at about 50 psi.

The flow rate will be somewhere between 8 and 15 GPM depending on depth to water in your well.

When you flush a toilet the pressure will drop a little but it will recover.
 

DumbOnPlumbing

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Will Try

I can tell you that the pipes leading to the outside spigots are smaller in diameter than the pipes that lead to inside fixtures. Would this cause less pressure?

I will try to hook up a hose directly to the outside spigot. Right now it goes through the hose reel so I'll eliminate that variable.

I'll also time filling up a small barrel both inside and out.

Right now I have one tractor hooked up to the front and the back spigot has a y connector with one tractor and one stationary rotating sprinkler. When I last tried that the pump still cut on every minute so I have no idea how many Time I might need to Y split my lines. Maybe Lowe's sells some "hub" to run several lines.

Will report back. Thanks all.
 

Bob NH

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Try running the water from the spigot outside with no hose. Try all of the available outside spigots at the same time. See what pressure can be maintained.

If you find that you can keep the pump from cycling on/off with that condition then you should be able to solve the "problem" by increasing the number of sprinklers or the capacity of the number of sprinklers that you have.

It may be that you have too small a line to the spigots. A 1/2" copper line is pretty small for the 15 GPM capacity of your pump.

You can also try increasing the pressure settings to 50/70 psi start/stop. You can do that by adjusting your pressure switch.
 

Leejosepho

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I can tell you that the pipes leading to the outside spigots are smaller in diameter than the pipes that lead to inside fixtures. Would this cause less pressure?

When no water is running anywhere, the pressure is the same everywhere. But if a small pipe is feeding a large hose, the pressure would be lower inside the hose (only) while water is runnng through it. Think of two funnels with their small ends joined together. The ultimate flow will be determined by how much water can physically pass through the small section at whatever pressure. As long as your pump can maintain at least 40 psi while water is running wherever, you have plenty of pressure and there is nothing wrong with your pump.
 

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This kind of problem is exactly what a Cycle Stop Valve was made for. Your pump is plenty large enough if it is cycling on and off. This means it is pumping more water than you are using. You may not even be able to run enough water outside to keep the pump from cycling. The size of the pipe coming to the faucets may not be large enough to let out enough water to keep the pump from cycling. Then there is the number of faucets and the size of the hole in the faucets themselves to consider. Adding hose splitters on the faucets won't solve the problem if that is the case.

Just turning the pressure switch up to 50/70 may help but, a ½ HP 10 GPM pump can only produce about 100 PSI. So if your water level in the well is deeper than 70', the pump may not be able to build up to 70 for the shut off. Make sure it does or you will nuke the pump.

Adding a 50 PSI Cycle Stop Valve will keep the pump from cycling no matter how few hoses or sprinklers you want to run at one time. With the CSV, the pump will not cycle even with just one sprinkler by itself. The constant 50 PSI from the CSV will deliver better pressure to the entire system than the on at 40 and off at 60 you are seeing now. Using the CSV to eliminate the cycling will also make your pump last longer and keep you from bursting the bladder in the tank. Cycling bends the bladder back and forth until it breaks like bending a wire.

You already do not have enough pressure, adding more hoses or sprinklers to stop the cycling will lessen the pressure even more. This is an easy fix for a Cycle Stop Valve, and exactly why nearly all pump systems need one.

Sorry, two of you beat me to the post.
 

Wondering

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Not that it will cure your problem, but you need to drain your tank and check to see if you have 38psi air in it since you are using a 40/60 setting. This will get you a hair more drawdown than you are getting if your air charge is low. You haven't mentioned anywhere here that you have checked the air .
 

DumbOnPlumbing

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Thanks & Updated Pictures!

Please know how much hope you have given my wife and I. We've been given so much run-around from these well companies. You're really helping us out.

Here are new pictures. The pipe leading to the two exterior spigots is definitely smaller in diameter than the other water lines.

SpigotLine1a.jpg


SpigotLine1.jpg


SpigotLine2.jpg


Diagram.gif


So are you saying I need to have those pipes replaced with larger diameter ones?

Also, where would my plumber install the CSV? Before or after the current valve?

We can't thank you enough!
 

Leejosepho

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The pipe leading to the two exterior spigots is definitely smaller in diameter than the other water lines ...

So are you saying I need to have those pipes replaced with larger diameter ones?

The pros should be able to tell you how much water can pass through 1/2" copper pipe of a given length and at 40 psi, but my guess is that 3/4" lines might help. One more analytical test you might try (if you have not already) is to let both spigots run wide open and see what your pump does. If it can build to 60 psi and shut off with both spigots running open, then it can supply larger lines. But if it cannot, larger lines would not really help.

Also, where would my plumber install the CSV? Before or after the current valve?

Others here can answer that, but be sure you understand what a CSV would actually and only do: It will simply keep the pump running continually and at a constant pressure (if the pump can actually maintain that pressure) for just as long as any water is running anywhere. In other words: A CSV limits maximum pressure to keep the pump from cycling for as long as water is running anywhere ... and that is dependent upon the pump first being able to actually produce that limited pressure at whatever flow of water is running.
 

Gary Slusser

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I can tell you that the pipes leading to the outside spigots are smaller in diameter than the pipes that lead to inside fixtures. Would this cause less pressure?

They always are smaller. You are confusing pressure and gpm flow. A smaller ID pipe will have the same pressure, a higher velocity and contain/deliver less flow gpm than a larger ID pipe. The higher velocity increases pressure loss in the line. That assumes say a 3/4" line reduced to 1/2". A Y divides the flow.

I will try to hook up a hose directly to the outside spigot. Right now it goes through the hose reel so I'll eliminate that variable.

Unhook it and don't use a hose but don't expect to learn much about why your sprinklers aren't working well. IMO you should have less flow outside and your hose will restrict flow. Are your hoses 1/2" ID or 5/8" ID or a mixture of both?

A CSV will solve your problem and give you constant pressure and prevent the pump from cycling.
 

Leejosepho

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  • Inside water pressure fine.
  • Outside always been poor, and we want to increase that.
We have 3/4 acre with several lengths of hose and watering tractors, but even with one hose and a hand sprayer the pressure is low.

When outside sprinklers run the pump kicks exactly every one minute. The pressure gauge kicks on at 40, rises to 60 and cuts off.

A CSV will solve your problem and give you constant pressure and prevent the pump from cycling.

A CSV will give you a constant pressure (around 50 psi or so?) and prevent the pump from cycling, but that does not guarantee your problem will be solved. As long as the pump can keep up, and it likely will, your pressure will not drop to the start point of 40 psi ... however, all of that will still be relative to "Inside water pressure fine -- Outside always been poor" and subject to the friction/limitations of "several lengths of hose" reaching over 3/4 acre.

The typical outside spigot was never really intended for heavy watering, and the CSV will only slightly improve its performance during such a demand.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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my thoughts exactly...

A

The typical outside spigot was never really intended for heavy watering, and the CSV will only slightly improve its performance during such a demand.



you are not going to win...

your present tank is woefulley too small to do
anything near what you want it to do.... it cant work....

maybe if you install a commercial sized bladder tank
and raise the pressure level of the switch you
might get more volume.. and somewaht more pressure at the hoses...

Now, if you are going to shell out the money anyway at LOWES,
get the largest pressure tank you can lay your hands on..

like the Welllxtrol wx302 its 26x48 tall with an 80 gallon capacity
and an 1 1/4 opening comming off of it....
and then put a higher pressure switch on it...

if you are doing this yourself it will cost you about $650.





thats all I got to say about that..............
 
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Valveman

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OK a bigger tank is only going to reduce the cycling a little but, it will not eliminate the cycling like the CSV will. And with the CSV, you really only need a 20 gallon size tank, which in Well-X-Trol numbers is a WX-202, and much less expensive.

The way the CSV will give you more pressure outside is that it will keep the pressure constant at 50 PSI. This will give you stronger pressure than the average 50 PSI, that you get when the pump is continually cycling between 40 and 60 PSI. Although the CSV will help with the pressure, there is only so much water you can push through ½" pipe, the faucet orifice, and long hoses.

Small lines and long hoses may reduce the pressure to the outside sprinklers but, many times a lot of the restriction is in the faucet itself. Some faucets have a smaller hole than others with a tiny little rubber washer for the closing seal. Some faucets have a much larger opening and will let your sprinklers have more flow and pressure. I really prefer a Ball Valve rather than a faucet. You just have to use a 3/4 hose to pipe connector to make it attach to a garden hose. I will bet you will be surprised just how much using a faucet with a larger hole and seat will increase the pressure to the sprinklers. I doubt that new faucets will increase the flow enough to keep the pump from cycling and therefore, you still need the CSV.

https://terrylove.com/watersize.htm
 
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Bob NH

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The fact that you have low pressure outside while your 12 GPM pump is causing the pressure switch to cycle is absolute evidence that your pipes and valves from the tank to the outside are too small. Nothing short of larger pipes to the outside will solve that outside pressure problem; not a bigger tank, not a bigger pump, and not a CSV.

You need to get from the main line, which can be off the pump-to-tank line or from at least a 3/4" line at the tank, via at least 3/4" copper or something larger, with full-port ball valves and a minimum number of tees and elbows, to your outside watering system.

With the correct size pipes you will be able to deliver as much water as your pump can pump. If that doesn't give you enough water then you will need a bigger pump and even larger pipes.
 
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