well pressure tank problem

Hello Plumbers,
I have never posted a question so here goes:
I have a 900 gallon pressure tank that is bladderless I think. It's the old fashioned kind. The well is 800 feet deep and has a submersible pump. The well failed last October. One day it was working, then we had a wind storm. No clouds or lightening, just very high winds. Then the next day the well pump did not work. All of our electrical supply lines are underground. We tried to change the fuses but when my husband did everything arcked. We made sure we used the correct fuses. All correct. It is now June 2008 and we have been hauling water from 20 miles away on our truck, 200 gallons at a time.
We have a small booster pump that sucks the hauled water out of our tank on the truck and puts it into the 900 gallon pressure tank. The pressure tank only accepts about 100 to 150 gallons at a time before the auto switch turns off. When it kicks off the pressure gauge reads 42 psi. When the pressure gauge reads about 12 to 14 psi, we have very little pressure and have to fill it again. So from 12/14 psi (basically empty) to 42 psi(full) we use 100 to 150 gallons. If the total volume the tank holds is 900 gallons, how can we get more volume availability before having to fill again? I think the tank needs to be bled off but my husband doesn't think it matters. He does not want to take the time to do this because he is not sure how to I think. Can you help explain how we can make this system work better? Also, does anyone have any ideas as to what might have happened to our well pump? The well company wants $1500.00 to pull the submersible pump out to see what the problem is and then they said it might cost up to $10,000.00 to fix. This well is only four years old. We are very strapped for money and don't know what else to do but continue to haul outside water in. Thanks for any help you can offer.
Carol

The estimate on the repair of the Submersible pump is a bit high.

The Galvanized tank your talking about uses air to push the water out. The amount of air is far greater than the amount of water you can get from the tank under pressure. Figure about 1/5th of the Tanks actual volume. Once the air which was compressed at 40 psi is down to the 14 psi, there isn't much compressed air left or pressure to push the water out to the faucets.

You could use an air compressor to get the rest of the air from the tank or fix the submersible.

bob...

Only about 12% to 15% of a tanks volume is usable water, that would be 108 to 135 gallons so that sounds about right. Bleeding the air make it worse. I know it sounds funny but adding air will give you more available water. Let all the water and pressure out of the tank. With 0 pressure in the tank you want the water level to be just above the discharge pipe. Then add air with a compressor until the pressure is about 20 PSI. Then it will take more water to fill the tank to 42 PSI, so you will get more water out when the pressure goes the other way.

You could also let all the air out of the tank, and fill it with 900 gallons of water. Then hook up your air compressor to the 20/40 pressure switch. The compressor will come on and off until it has pushed all 900 gallons out as you need it.

4 years is not long enough for a pump to last. However, the average life is only 7 years. It usually depends on how many times it cycles on and off. My guess is that your tank became waterlogged. The pump cycled on and off too much and burned up. However, it could just be a worn spot on the wire down in the well or maybe even just the capacitor in the control box. I would make sure the control box is working correctly before pulling the pump. If there is an electrical short in the well, it will have to be pulled. 800' is a deep well and not cheap to work on. 10,000 bucks sounds very steep but, you never know what the problem is until you get it out where you can see and check things. If you have to buy a new pump, see if you can purchase a 5 year warranty. Some pump companies have this available. Other than that, when you get it fixed, don't let it cycle on and off anymore than you have to. That is usually the cause of failure.

Sorry Speedbump, I was typing while you were posting.

Hi and thanks for replying!
To give you a little more info on our situation. Before the well went down last October, we did not have the submersible pump set on automatic.
We filled our pressure tank by manually turning on the switch. My husband didn't like the auto on setup because he wanted to monitor how much water we used for any given month/season. We turned the submersible on roughly every other day(sometimes once every day during summer because we had a swamp cooler running all the time and it uses alot of water)for about
10 minutes til the auto shut off cut off at 42 psi, so I don't think the pump
burned up due to cycling off/on too much on its own. But do you think we
might have burned up the pump by turning it on for 10 minutes every other
day? Or every day for that matter??
It is a Gould's 5 hspwr submersible pump. On three-phase power. Let me know what you think of this pattern/frequency of turning on the pump, so if/when we get it fixed we won't do that again. Thanks for your advice!
Carol

You should not have hurt anything turning that pump on manually like that. As a matter of fact that pump should have lasted for decades when only being used for 10 minutes every other day. Now my guess is that you have a broken or shorted wire down the hole. Probably find a skinned spot on the wire from where it rubbed on the casing during installation. Maybe not?? Might be just one of those unexplanable things but, still not right. Is the same guy that installed it for you the one who wants 1500 just to pull it up and look?

If the recovery rate on the well was not sufficient, it is possible that when pumping that hundred or more gallons of water all at once, it ran dry momentarily. That can ruin a pump.

Good thinking but, probably not the case if it always filled up to 42 PSI and shut off without hesitating.

Valveman:
I called a well repairman out yesterday. He did a little investigating at our electrical panel and said all was ok there. Then he took off a small cover on the electrical line at the well head and showed me the wires. They were very tight like they were being pulled down hard and also where the hole is the wire's insulation cover (skin? I think you called it) was crimped up against the metal edge of the hole to the point of almost cutting it open. He said the pump had most likely become detached or almost detached. At any rate his guess was that something came loose at the pump level or maybe the pvc pipe broke somewhere along the line and the pump is hanging by the electrical wire. Obviously he won't know until the whole thing is pulled out. He is going to write me up a proposal. He also said our system was way too much for just using for one household and suggested downsizing on the pump (from 5 hspwr to 1 or 2 hspwr) to save on cost, that is if our pump is burned up. If it is still working then the wire and pipe should be the only thing that needs to be replaced. He also suggested that we nix the 900 gallon pressure tank and get one or two small bladder tanks. Our well is 200 feet south of our house and probably 20 feet lower in elevation. Our 900 gallon pressure tank is 230 feet north of our house and probably 25 feet higher in elevation. He said the pressure switch is up by the pressure tank but should be down by the well. He explained why but I can't remember why. He was throwing out alot of info to me and I was trying to remember all to relay to hubby. He also said the bladder tank if I choose to put one in should be down by the well. He said a new 5 hspwr submersible is about $3200.00 these days. And the work around 1 to 2 days depending on how long it takes them to pull the pump out should cost around 1 to 2 thousand, he's just guessing off the top of his head. He said the wire might be able to be salvaged somewhat. We still have half a roll that the original well drillers left. The original well drillers said it was of no use to them because you can't splice it. But the man yesterday said it can be spliced if done correctly. What do you think? I don't want to have another problem 6 months or a year down the road.
Thanks for your advice,
Carol

I think you are finally talking to a good pump man. Yes wire can be spliced. No your pipe should not have come loose in the well, and I hope it is still attached. Otherwise he may have to fish it out and that can be expensive. Nothing wrong with the 900 gallon tank as long as you keep air in it. I do like bladder tanks better but, the way you are using it, doesn't make that much difference. Yes a smaller pump would also be fine with no more water than you are using. The pressure switch needs to stay with a pressure tank no matter where you decide the tank should be.

I would want to make the first company fix what they messed up. I would not think I should have to pay for anything if it was their mistake. 800' is very deep for plastic pipe holding a 5 HP pump anyway. Of course they apparently don't know what they are doing, so you may just want to cut your loses and work with the new guy.

I am just afraid this will be a fishing job. I would be all over the first company to at least come out and pull the pump, fishing included if necessary. Then you could decide what needs to be done. If they put in the wrong kind of pipe for 800', or they just didn't get it tight and it fell off, I would not be wanting to pay them anything for at least getting this mess out of the well. There is enough damages there to warrant calling a lawyer. I wouldn't say a word or call a lawyer until they get it out of the hole. If it is obvious they messed it up and still want to charge you, then call the lawyer. The problem is that nobody will know what happened until it is out of the hole where you can see it.

I don't think calling the original well drillers is an option as they are not in the phone book now. The man who came out yesterday is familiar with this driller and told me the same as what you said, that they really didn't know what they were doing. He, as well as other pump guys in our area, have had to go in and fix things that this driller had not done right or messed up and didn't say anything to the client. The man yesterday said he really didn't want to bad mouth the driller but the bottom line was that they weren't very good at their job. He also told me that they are not in business any more. Surprise,
surprise!! I believe I need to do as you suggested and just cut my losses and
fix it and move on. I am glad you said I have probably found a good pump man.
He seemed very knowledgeable and polite and kind. Hopefully he will do us a good turn. It is difficult for the client who doesn't know the business. (i.e. my husband and I) We have to trust the professional. We trusted the original driller and it didn't work out. The well cost us $50,000.00 originally. We should have gotten a good working well for that kind of money and it should have lasted for more than 3 years. Thank you for your advice. That helps me to have trust in this new pump man. I'll keep you posted on the progess.
Carol

$50,000.00 for a well???

bob...

Yes! $50,000.00 for an 800 ft deep well. And he was one of the least expensive quotes I got. Several of the others wanted $75,000.00 or more.
And their waiting list was 12 months or longer. Also take into consideration that this was in 2004 and the housing "BOOM" was in full swing. Anything having to do with building a home was very pricey! Now that the bottom has fallen out of the housing market, I wonder if well drilling is cheaper. I know there are alot of other contractors out there starving for work. I've had several of the subcontractors who worked on my home call me in the last few months wondering if we had any work for them. That's a twist!
Also, yes I am almost ashamed to say it---I live in California--everything is over priced here!

I would have never believed you could get that much for a Well. But look at the Bottled Water Industry, talk about milking the Public. What some people won't do to be trendie.

bob...

Ordinarily the pressure switch should be at the tank. That is the pressure that you want to control.

The tank is 450 ft from the well. If the pressure switch is at the well it will shut off when the pressure at the well is equal to the tank pressure plus the pressure loss in the pipe. As soon as it shuts off the pressure will drop at the well by whatever the pressure loss was in the pipe and the pump will start sooner again. The tank will never reach the pressure of the switch setting.

DO NOT let them remove any wire from the pressure tank to the pump. You need that for control.

The service guy may have told you that the switch should be at the well because of wire distances. That is wrong! With 450 ft between tank and well, the switch at the tank should be controlling a contactor (a big power relay) at the well, so there the power is not coming from the tank area. The only thing that should be coming from the pressure switch at the tank is a control circuit that carries very little current.

You don't need to replace the 900 gallon tank. You just need to learn how to operate it. A tank that large should have a "sight gauge" which is a glass tube on the end of the tank that lets you see how much water is in the tank. If there is no sight gauge you can still deal with it as I will describe below. Also, don't pay someone a lot of money to replace the tank and don't let them talk you into letting them take away or abandon that 900 gallon tank. It is worth thousands of dollars.

AIR CONTROL:
Air control in a tank is based on the concept that when the tank has very little water (perhaps 50 gallons above the outlet for your 900 gallon tank) there should be enough air in the tank to make the pressure equal to the start pressure of the pump/switch.

There is often a connection at the center of the head of a horizontal tank. If there is a connection, here is an easy way to check it and get the correct air in the tank.

Put a small valve on that port, or you can use the air valve. If you open the valve and water comes out, there is not enough air in the tank.

Air filling procedure:
1. Check to see if water is coming out of the port when the pump shuts off (high pressure). If there is water coming out when you open the port, then you are going to add air.

2. Turn off the power to the pump so it won't run.

3. Using an air compressor with lots of capacity, add air to the tank to increase the pressure to 75 psi.

4. As the pressure drops as you use water (or dump it to waste), keep adding air to the tank to keep it at 75 psi until there is no water coming out of the centerline port when you check it.

If the pressure is 75 psi when the tank is half full (water line at centerline of the tank) then the pressure will be 30 psi when the tank is empty of water. That is because when the gauge pressure in the tank is 75 psi, the total (absolute) pressure in the tank is 75 psi + 15 psi = 90 psi. Doubling the air volume in the tank when the tank becomes empty will cut the absolute pressure in half to 45 psi absolute, which is 30 psi gauge. If you operate the tank between 35 and 55 psi it will never be quite empty and the available drawdown will be about 250 gallons for each pump cycle.

If you want a little less pressure you can pressurize it to 70 psi when the tank is half full of water.

Once you get it set up you can check it occasionally and add air up to 70 or 75 psi whenever you find that water comes out when you check the port at the mid-height of the tank.

You should learn how your system operates so the "pros" can't hornswoggle you when there is a problem.

To give you an idea what pumps should cost, the link below give prices on Goulds submersibles.
http://www.wwpp.us/goulds/goulds-submersible-3-wire.shtml

Check the prices for the 18GS series. The price is nearly the same for the same horsepower. 18GS10 is 1 HP, 18GS20 is 2 HP, 18GS30 is 3 HP, and 18GS50 is 5 HP. A 5 HP 18GS50 is less than $1800 with shipping for a single phase pump and should be less than that for a 3 phase pump.

The system already has a "big power relay", it is a 3 phase unit and won't work without one. There is nothing wrong with the tank, air charge, or draw down amount, the pump is the part that is not working. Price of a pump is immaterial when it is 800' and you need a real well man to pull and set it. The price he gives you for a pump installed, and his ability to stand behind his work, is what is important.

Also, moving the switch closer to the well and control power may be important as there are sometimes problems running control voltage that far. The impedance between two very long control wires can cause a voltage problem with the coil on the "big power relay".

BobNH also sent you to a site to buy a Submersible Pump that would cost $180.00 more than the equivalent 1/2hp Pump on my site. And that pump is a three wire which needs a Control Box for around another $75.00. My Pump is a two wire and no Box is required.

bob...