Why would NIBCO/CPI Durapex PEX split (lengthwise) and leak?

[Mikey]

Maybe it was a cheap PEX knockoff made in China. Sure looks like a seam, both internally and in the external pictures. I can't wait to hear what NIBCO has to say.

Interesting Wikipedia article. Where would we be without the Internet? How did I survive in my formative years?

[alternety]

Maybe a defect in the extruding die that caused an internal scratch. If that is the cause it would mean the whole roll has the defect (as well as however thousands of feet made before the die was replaced.

Just speculation from what has been said.

[Redwood]

Definitely Possible... Wonder how many feet they spit out from when the mandrel got the burr til they detected it... Well as you said its all speculation... We don't know Jack!

[master plumber mark]

Unless this was just a bad run of pipe, my guess it that
Nibco wil be doing about the same thing Zurn is now doing...

heading for Canada with the lawyers hot on their tails....


I thought most pexes had something to do with the materials
being seamless "cross linked" material and this would not happen.....

I will have to read the link you left here...


It will be interesting to see if Nibco
actually replies to this or they just delay the results
untill they figure out what their legal options are...



but in all truthfulness....
my guess is that they laid off a bunch of
Americans that knew how to do the work right
and subbed out the work to the slaves in China..

now they are gonna pay..100 times more ....for sellling
their souls to China for the promise of a dirt cheap product...


you might want to look into some of the skum bag lawyers out
there who are just chomping to bits to file a class actioin lawsuit
against these pex companies....

you could be the test case
.


.

[celiason]

Although I am trying to remain optimistic, I am becoming unsure of what to expect when I hear from this manufacturer...am I being completely naive here?

I still plan to allow them time to complete their analysis and respond to me, but after reading y'alls posts, I am wondering if I should be exploring my legal options too...

...sigh...

one more close-up pic I had to shrink so it would fit here...this is the manufacturer stamp on the last section we replaced...(I sent a copy of all the rest of info stamped on this run of pex to the lab also)...

I am wondering where this particular pipe was actually made. That information was not stamped on what I have...

Thanks for checking in ...

[alternety]

One way to maybe look at the rest of the cut out pex would be to get a bright LED and slide it into the tube to see if the scratch can be seen from the outside. You could test the idea on one of the pieces that you know are bad.

Someone with a small diameter optical probe could look for a little way inside; maybe the stuff still in the wall. From the description, there is a real possibility of it splitting inside the wall if reconnected. The damage from that will probably exceed the cost of a preventive cutting of the drywall to replace the whole piece. If it is an extrusion flaw, there is probably more of it in the house from the same roll. It can be a very nasty situation.

celiason, you might want to talk to the vendor about that aspect of the situation before the month is up. Explain the issue of liability for damage if it turns out to be the pex (and it sure feels like it is) vs having a preventative replacement at their expense. Maybe pull that whole piece and give most of it to them. They should pay for a whole repipe if the pex is faulty.

[master plumber mark]

perhaps it would be best to figure out who was the buiilder
of this home and then find out who was the plumber....

if you are not the original owner, you will have to do a little homework
but eventually you shoud be able to talk to the plumber who actually installed the stuff

they should be able to answer your questions as long
as you dont come across like you are going to sue them...

[Herk]

I can only think of two things that are possible that have not yet been mentioned:

1) Somebody drove over the roll of pipe before installing it.

2) There is a backflow prevention on a water meter or a pressure reduction valve that prevents water pressure from relieving as the water heater heats and expands the water, resulting in extreme pressure in the middle of the night or whenever the water isn't used for a while. However, a relief valve should be protecting in this instance.

[Cass]

I know PEX can only be exposed to sunlight for a specific short duration, I don't know what sunlight does to PEX but maybe the roll was exposed longer than it was supposed to be before being installed.

The pic almost makes it look like there was a problem during the extrusion process...a burr on the end of the mold maybe and your roll got through before it was caught or the plastic recipe wasn't the right %s and it shrunk, extrusion pressure wasn't right the temps were off?

I can't wait to here what the Mfg. says.

[BRB19]

I'm in the office of a plumbing company in Charlotte NC and we do residential as well as other phases of plumbing. We used Dura-Pex for a number of years and had switched over to Rehau a few years back. We've experienced many of the instance that is shown in the photos here in the last couple years. It's ONLY Dura-pex ( so far ) , ONLY on the hot side , and in a couple year span of construction which leads us to believe it is a bad batch.

The majority of the houses we installed it in had PRVs but not Expansion tanks which were not code at the time. We've put them on the houses that experienced the problems afterwards hoping to alleviate any further splitting.

Here is what I know. Durapex was bought out by the Nibco INC. of Elkhart Indiana. Calling them or their reps is virtually worthless.

We have been given a number that has helped many homeowners and will continue to issue it once the problem is identified as a defective Dura-pex pipe. The company is the Chubb Group of Insurance Companies of Warren NJ, and their number is 908-903-2000. Their fax is 908-903-2027. They seem to be the one in charge of handling claims on Dura-pex issues.

I'm not buying the scratches on the exterior of the pipe having anything to do with this issue and having seen it first hand many times I'm convinced and it's obvious that it is a manufacturing or error in the chemical makeup of the pipe. I've been told before that recirculation pumps decrease the life of the pex on the hot side due to it replicating years of use in a short time. Either way the pipe can be defective but it's only on the hot, right near the heater ( usually ), and a very, very small percentage of pipe out there. I could list many problems and errors with copper fittings and tubing/pipe if you like. No pipe system is perfect.

Bad batch seems to be the best explanation.

FYI, I've also seen one instance of perpendicular splitting on a pex pipe and there is never a " scratch " or hole near the site that isn't caused by the defect splitting from the inside out.

It would take a very talented plumber to scratch the inside of a 3/4" or 1/2" pex tube in the middle. ( insert rim-shot here ).

[celiason]

BRB19 -Thank you for the information! I am keeping it with all my records for future reference.

Earlier in this process, I contacted the CHUBB Group and was informed by a representative that they only handle liability claims (for damages or injury) caused by CPI DURAPEX manufactured before the merge with NIBCO in 2006, not issues involving its manufacture. So I am hoping that the technical division of NIBCO/CPI in Lebanon, OH can give us some answers on this piping... I have been in touch and have been asked to call them back next week for an update on the analysis (I have the names of actual people to talk to!) So I remain optimistic that we can get an answer....

Incidentally, in your post I got the impression that in the pics you thought you saw scratches on the outside of the pipe. Those are actually the splits where the water burst through the pipe...in all three portions that I saved, these seem to line up when I place the pieces together, so it appears to be a linear defect apparently...(and FYI in case anybody is wondering, we do not have a recirculating pump either ...)

Also, our house is in the Charlotte region too. You say you have seen other instances of this in houses built in a certain time span here. Do you think a bad batch may have slipped through CPI's Quality Control and been shipped to a distributor in our area? It happens....

Thanks again for your interest and to all who have asked questions and offered suggestions...I try to check in daily and will keep you updated as I can...

I remain hopeful...

[celiason]

I think we may have an answer...sorry for the delay...

First, technical at NIBCO/CPI was very helpful and informative. They analyzed my pex sample and found the measurements conformed to standard and based on the "melt test" (tests cross-linkage), they could not confirm that the Durapex was defective. I can send a larger sample (six feet) for other tests, but based on conversations, I have a theory....

When the house was built in 1999, it may have not been code to install an expansion tank (?)...(I am going to check this out with my county). We had a PRV which gave us a closed system. My theory is that with the closed system, over time, heat and pressure strained the section of pex nearest the water heater beyond limits (the splits so far have only occurred on the hot water distribution side of the heater and close to the heater and in hindsight and from what I have learned here, we had a few other symptoms that I didn't recognize at the time). Even after we installed an expansion tank we had one more split, but I think that this was on a portion that had been stressed before the E tank installation. Technical has recommended that in cases like this, 20 feet of the pex coming from the water heater should be replaced to prevent anymore splits...

I haven't seen another expansion tank anywhere else on my plumbing, so I think the one we installed is the only one we have. If we have anymore problems after finding this possible solution, I reserve the right to pursue more testing on a larger sample, but I think this is the answer I have been looking for (and the most logical). Does it make sense to the Plumbers and DIY-ers out there or am I grasping at straws? I am going to be calling my county building inspectors and water engineers to ask some questions though...Now I am curious about all things plumbing...



Thanks to all for your answers and suggestions. If you can think of anything else, I will keep checking in. This board has been and remains extremely helpful...

-c

[jadnashua]

With no water running, the pressure is the same everywhere; the only difference would be that the water closest to the WH would be hotter. So, pressure and heat may be the culprit, but maybe not.

[Redwood]

No smoking gun but a maybe.... With the heat and added pressure it could be...
I dunno! Thanks for posting back!

[Penny Porter]

We built our house in Rock Hill, SC 3 years ago. We had our first hot water line leak about a year ago. Since then, we have had 6-7 episodes of the pipe splitting. Chubb group has denied our claim. This has done major damage to our house, and the whole house will have to be re piped at great cost. Has anyone gotten any satisfaction on this issue?