Extending Well casing

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Sammyhydro11

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Gary,
i think you are a great resource when it comes to water treatment and when it comes to water wells, you seem to know a great deal. I just dont like the idea of a rubber coupling for well casing. For good reason here in massachusetts, and other states, it wouldn't be acceptable. For what its worth that is my opinion on the matter.

Sammy
 

Wet_Boots

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Really, apples to oranges! I don't think so. As to a nut driver, never used one. I've used the proper torque wrench for SS hose clamps. I guess you've never used a Fernco or you'd know how well they seal on surfaces that aren't flat/smooth.
I always regarded the well water guys' attitude towards their states' licensing authority as something on par with "How high do you want us to jump, SIR!" ~ so corner-cutting creativity had no place in their business. There doesn't seem to be a lot of official tolerance for practices that might jeopardize the public water supply.
 

estone

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Thought I'd show you some pictures of the final product.
What do you think?


IMG_0020.jpg

IMG_0022.jpg

IMG_0027.jpg
 

Speedbump

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I don't understand the two welds. Didn't he have one piece of black pipe that was long enough? He must have had to stand on his head to make those welds in that narrow hole.

I would make sure to put something under that pipe coming from the pitless and dropping down with the two elbows. The PVC street ell's threads are a place just waiting to break with settling of the hole occurs. That looks like sandy clay, but is hard to tell in the picture. I would put some bricks under the entire pipe in the hole to shim it up.

bob...
 

Wet_Boots

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Certainly looks like a job that could pass a pressure/vacuum test. I can see why the Jersey guy contented himself with the heavy-duty bolt-on coupler for extending the casing.
 

estone

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The hole is a little bigger than it appears but it still was cramped. But I didn't have to pay the $750-1000 excavation fee for them to dig the hole with the backhoe. Plus I have sprinkler lines all over that would have been impossible to dig around with a backhoe without having to repair them later.
I don't know why he needed two pieces to weld either. I'm assuming he didn't have one piece long enough. Soil is pure sand.

$3500 for extending the casing, new pitless adapter, new (250') 1 1/4" PVC drop pipe with wire, new pump(Grundfos) and new 1hp motor. $140/hr labor. Seem fair?
Seems fair to me since we are a captive audience in Eastern Colorado.
 

Speedbump

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I think he punished you for digging such a small hole diameter wise.:rolleyes: With a backhoe, he could have gotten down there and worked without having to stand on his head.

I think he stung you a bit on the price. If you add $1500.00 to that you could have a whole new 150 foot 5" well, pump, tank, CSV, and all the trimmings installed. However I can see him wanting to charge you for having to work in that little hole. Believe me, I have worked in and dug a whole bunch of those holes in the past (never again I hope) and that is a small hole. The guy must have been real talented to do that nice a job with a stick welder like that.

bob...
 

estone

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Speedbump, in my area the wells are 250'+, not sure if that would increase your price you quoted? ($5000)

I have a friend using the same driller to drill a new well because his casing is deteriorating. He wants $7000. Probably a 175ft well in that area.
 

Speedbump

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That would be pretty close what a well that deep here would cost. Including all the extra's of course.

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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From the link provided to the CT regulation; I hadn't seen the post with the link until now.
Slip joint couplings may be used to join well casing but provide the lowest joint strength. These couplings are often used when the old and new sections of well casing have slightly different dimensional characteristics. Commonly, older well casings may have thinner wall construction than the minimum casing thicknesses required by the current well drilling code. Many manufacturers have compression couplings available to account for these dimensional differences and provide a positive seal to both sections of well casing. When slip joint couplings must be used, the top of the coupling shall be located below the frost line, as determined by the applicable building codes, to reduce the possibility of premature separation of the joined sections of well casing due to frost heave. Only slip joint couplings conforming to the current American Water Works Association (AWWA) Standard C219 or pitless units conforming to the Water Systems Council’s (WSC) Pitless Adapter Standard 97 (PAS-97) shall be used to extend well casings for public water systems. Pitless units meeting the PAS-97 standard can found by accessing the WSC website at www.wschome.org.

That sounds a bit like a Fernco fitting but if not, it will have a rubber type seal, like a Fernco. I couldn't find the picture they refer to in Fig 2.

In a previous life I was a welder. I did some stick and A LOT of long large and continuous gas inershield and submerged arc welds; 10-15' was common. The majority was on high tensile strength steel. All my welds were permanently stamped and visually inspected and then x-rayed an/or magnafluxed. I never had a failed weld in the 3+/- years that I was employed as a production welder in the railroad car manufacturing industry.

By enlarging the pictures and looking at the welds of that casing, I can say that they are good enough to hold it from falling over until the hole is backfilled and that is about it. He did not do continuous welds, he dabbed one weld to another and the only way he could have done a good weld would have been vertical up all around. But it's "welded"...

The top weld on the pitless looks flat to me, it should be like 45*. Looking up the MAASS pitless, I wouldn't want one.

What is the flat round plate on top of the casing? Is it just to keep something from falling down the well now and you have a real cap to install later?

I think he charged you 35- 50% too much. A regular pitless is like $150-200 installed (with a hole saw to cut the hole and about 30 minutes total to cut the hole and tighten the pitless through the casing). PE pipe is much less than PVC and the time and effort it takes to install 20' sections of it with couplers at $140/hr! while PE pipe is about $200 for a 300' roll installed; taking like 30 minutes to drop it down the well including taping the cable to it every 10'. And why 1.25" drop pipe with a 1 hp pump when 1" would have been fine?
 

estone

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Gary,
I thought that was the cap?

I imagine I can't really ask him to drop his price?

I haven't paid the bill yet.
 

Gary Slusser

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Did he weld that cover on the casing? If so it may be because of the type of pitless adapter he used. I've never seen one like that before but I read about it on the MAASS web site after searching for it (after seeing the name on yours when I blew up the picture you posted). And usually, the power cable goes up the outside of the casing through the casing cap and down the well. He has it going through a welded fitting on the casing, which I thought was odd but understand now it's because of that plate on the top of the casing.

I think the guy does things the way he does so he can bill more for the parts and then more time to install the more difficult parts at $140/hr. And then when there's a problem it costs a lot more to get the pump out and put things back together.

If it was me, I'd negotiate a better price. And then tell everyone your story and the guys name for the next 5 years or so.

Here's the link, I think you have the MB model.
http://tinyurl.com/4d4gwb
 

estone

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The bottom plate is welded. The top plate is then bolted onto it.
How do I go about negotiating the price. Base it on overcharging on labor?

Here's the breakdown:

8hrs labor, domestic repair rig and equip @140hr: $1120
Field weld, 1 man w/equip: $85.00
1hp Grundfos Pump 10S10-15: $600.40
1hp Franklin Motor: $413.00
200ft sch 80 1 1/4" PVC drop pipe: 1.56ft, $312.12
10 drop pipe couplings: 10.71ea, $107.10
210ft. wire: 1.42ft?, $298.20
Pitless adapter: $398.00
conduit box: $40.50
misc fittings: $9-10

~approx. $3380.00 +$63.00tax

$3446.91 total
 

Speedbump

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This is not to make you mad, because you didn't want to do this install yourself. You could buy that same pump (different brand but still the same) for $473.76. Pump and motor with external check valve.
Pumps are always marked up when installed instead of buying them over the counter with no installation warranty. But it is very rare that a pump goes bad in the first year.

bob...
 

estone

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He never gave me a price just an estimate and I understand well service estimates are truely estimates because you never know what you will run into. He thought it would be around $3000. That's with him doing the excavation. I figured I'd save some by digging myself. It is now $3500. That's fine and I have no problem paying it, it just seems like alot for labor, 140hr? I will pay it as it is, but will probably mention that I think it's a little high.
 

Gary Slusser

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The $140/hr was not just labor, it included his pump derrick truck to pull and put the drop pipe out/in the well.

Since he's within <$200 of his estimate that you approved, write the check and score it as tuition in your life experience costs column. The time to negotiate was when he gave you the estimate. That was also the time to make sure you knew what he was planning to do and with what materials.
 

estone

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His initial estimate included excavation. Which I did and thought it would save some $. I figure without excavation it would have been closer to $2500.

But like others stated I think he stung me a little for not letting him dig.

Thanks for everone's help and opinions. It has been quite a learning process.
 
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