Lawsuit or Recall of Am,Standard Champion toilets ?

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WJcandee

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I wonder whether lubing the o-ring made any difference in terms of leaks.

The basics on this thing are: (1) have chain and trip lever set so it pulls the thing up vertically AND have the right amount of slack so it's not pulling the thing up ever so slightly when you put the lid on [had a toilet that was doing this -- looked like enough slack, then when put lid on it leveled the trip lever by pressing on part of it, leveling trip lever pulled on chain, chain was just taught enough to pull flapper up a smidge] ; (2) have a good sandwich [AS says 2-clicks]; (3) have a good gasket (you have the best one, and the fact that it now is flushing well, even if not sealing well, suggests that changing it was a good idea0.

Let's see how significant your leak is. I would mark the water level with a pencil, turn off the water to the toilet, leave it a few hours or overnight, and see where the water settles to. That is of some significance when evaluating leaks that aren't fixed by changing the seal. Let us know and we'll go from there.

Good luck!
 
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Mikey

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I would mark the water level with a pencil, turn off the water to the toilet, leave it a few hours or overnight, and see where the water settles to.

If he's got another toilet to use in the meantime, he could leave it for a looong time and note the water level when it stops leaking - presumably at the level of the flapper somewhere. If there's enough head to support the leak all the way down until the leak path is uncovered, he's got it nailed. I just noticed there's a light blue structure of some kind below the flapper -- maybe there's a leak associated with it. He could eliminate that fairly quickly by turning off the valve, flushing while holding the flapper open, then putting some food coloring in the remaining water and see if it finds its way into the bowl.
 
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WJcandee

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If it's refilling every 5 seconds, it isn't going to take overnight for the water to settle. Having worked with a few posters and absorbing the wisdom of these forums, the possibilities are:
(1) leak around seal;
(1a) leak around o-ring;
(2) crack in flush valve, either above the flapper or below;
(3) siphon (eliminated as a possibility here);
(4) crack in toilet (apparently eliminated here);
(5) leak in seal between flush valve and toilet.

The water level test is helpful. We solved a mystery leak in one poster's toilet when we discovered a crack in the overflow riser about 1-1/4" from top of riser. (Homeowner fixed with tape.) Cracks in base of flush valve require removing tank to replace valve and I don't know if this homeowner feels like going through that unless it's absolutely necessary.

One thing I have been curious about as we help these Champion owners with the stupid "accelerator" (NOT) flush valve is whether a 3" Toto flush valve with a flapper (or with the adjustable Korky 3" flapper to get the flush volume just right), might be a good replacement for the "accelerator". If I had a Champion, I would do the experiment myself, just as I did the experiment of replacing the Red Korky flapper in the Toto with the Blue Korky flapper to see how much difference the extra flush volume made. I suspect that the issue would be something to do with the flush valve nut and/or gasket, if there was an issue.
 
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JHZR2

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I stopped the water when just the red gasket was covered but not the black thing on top. I could still hear water trickling, so it seems that it is the gasket somehow. These things are pretty foolproof, so I fail to see what I could have done wrong twice... But I going to swap back to the blue one tonight or tomorrow and see...
 

WJcandee

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Doesn't seem like your test precludes a crack in the flush valve base, although that's a less-likely scenario.

One poster on the HD web site suggested putting both seals together; said it solved his leak. I am highly-dubious about that solution, but as long as you're experimenting...

Also might try wiping the lube off the o-ring.

Hope this helps.
 

JHZR2

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it could be, but while there always was a very slow leak that caused a very seldom cycling of the fill valve, it is very fast now that I have the other seal on. Im going to try the double trick, and if it works, I may just go buy two red ones and stack them...
 

Mikey

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To quickly confirm the flush valve base is OK, just hold the valve open and see if the trickle continues after the water level drops below the rim where the red seal seats.
 

Netmouse

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....Per the Champion defects: American Standard is replacing the miserable piston-style flush valve with the flapper style, as shown in Terry's photo. It's a world of difference on how the Champion toilet performs...well worth the replacement's hassle of removing the tank, then re-seating it. .......

At the Am Std website, the Champion being sold has a piston-style flush valve.

Meet the Champion® 4:
Elongated Right Height siphon action jetted bowl
EverClean® Surface
Low-consumption (6.0 Lpf/1.6 gpf)
4" piston action Accelerator™ flush valve
12" (305mm) rough-in
2-3/8" fully-glazed trapway
Rim height at 16-1/2" (419mm)
100% factory flush tested
2 bolt caps
Seat not included
10 year warranty
 

WJcandee

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At the Am Std website, the Champion being sold has a piston-style flush valve.

You are correct that that's how they still describe it. The flush valve is a marketing gimmick (the flush hole really isn't 4"; it's 3"). It's there to convince people that there is something special about their flush valve that makes the water go faster or enhances the flush. There isn't -- not more than a 3" valve anyway. Reflects the American approach: try to make a lot of drama about "pushing the stuff down", rather than quietly opening and smoothing the trapway so the stuff just quietly slides out of the bowl with just a little push, like Toto does.

They originally had a "tower" flush valve that went click-clack and looked like a shock-absorber which they called a piston. It was a huge disaster, a leak-o-matic. They tried to improve it but it still was a problem, so they decided to replace it. But they needed something cool and different LOOKING to replace it. And got Fluidmaster to make them the current thing. Since "piston-action" is a meaningless phrase, I guess they can call anything, including this dumb thing, a piston, and I guess they did so to keep the "piston action" marketing material consistent.

Nice catch. To us, the piston (i.e. the old tower flush valve) is history, but to them, the old piston has been replaced with a new piston. Which doesn't look or act like a piston, so go figure.

PS I should add to this that one of the most amusing and dumb things in the latest Consumer Reports article on toilets is their statement that old flapper flush valves are being replaced with modern plastic ones, which should be more reliable. There are so many laughable statements in there I just don't know where to begin. Remember when Consumer Reports actually used scientists to do evaluations? The AS "modern" "plastic" valves have been disasters. At the end of the day, of course, plastic doesn't seal holes, rubber (and its ilk) does. Using more plastic and less rubber doesn't make the thing more reliable. AS learned this when having to agree to replace every tower flush valve ever sold for free, after first trying a modified design which didn't work. What was the big change from the first Tower flush valve to the second? More rubber. Still didn't fix it. What does the "accelerator" have over the Tower? More rubber. And it's still something of a pain to repair. Pretty humorously, AS's toilet fixing web tool (which gives wrong answers to many simple questions) frequently recommends that you just change the whole flush valve. Right. Because changing the seal seems to be a challenging task for many, unlike changing those "old style" flappers.
 
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WJcandee

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there seemed to be a lot of earlier issues with the Champion.But the Champion may have most of it resolved.

OR...the quality control still sucks and this new "accelerator" flush valve is misleading and a pain to repair. That said, you are correct that the hugest problem -- with the flush valve -- was fixed. Sort of. Unfortunately, it was done by having every homeowner remove their tank (or pay a plumber to do it) in order to replace one dumb design flush valve with another.

However, many people like these toilets, and many people have these toilets, and many people will need to replace the seals on these toilets.

Thank you though for your nice words about the thread. I think you are correct that it will be useful to many.
 
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JHZR2

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So I did some more checking about my leak. It leaked right down to the bottom of the flap. In fact it looked like it was 1/16 below the top of the grey part.

champion-pb-03.jpg



That was after an overnight sit. After a weekend the result was the same.

champion-pb-02.jpg


champion-pb-01.jpg


Last night I doubled up the gasket - put the OE one on first (top) and then the new red one below (bottom, in contact with the grey thing in the tank).

Seems that the double gasket trick works. So I think the red gasket is ever so slightly too thin, causing an insufficient seal.
 
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WJcandee

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Huh. Glad I mentioned it. Oddly, lots of folks have fixed it with just the Korky and been very happy. Maybe its a tolerance thing. We will keep it in our bag of tricks for folks who can't fix it with just the Korky.
 

Greg98

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Huh. Glad I mentioned it. Oddly, lots of folks have fixed it with just the Korky and been very happy. Maybe its a tolerance thing. We will keep it in our bag of tricks for folks who can't fix it with just the Korky.

Glad I found this thread - replaced the seal on my AS Champion 4 (I know, I know), but the fill valve still kept firing up after a few minutes. Tried the food coloring and determined the leak was mostly likely at the seal, put the original seal in with the Korky and now I'm good to go. There were a couple of small blisters in the AS seal so I'll probably pick up another Korky and just use two of them.
 

WJcandee

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Great!! Glad we had this thread out there to help you!

And so you know, if you are handy enough to remove and reinstall your tank, and you get fed up with the silly Funnelator flush valve and wish you just had a good ol' flapper, you can! Korky now has a "Large 3" Adjustable Flush Valve Kit", Item No. 5030, which can replace the Toto 3" flush valve if you ever need to, and also is designed to replace both Champion flush valves: the original Tower Flush nightmare, and the silly Funnelator. It even has a picture of them on the box and says "Replaces These". It's a nice-quality plastic flush valve with the unique Korky twist and lock slide-adjustable wide overflow riser and a 3" Korky adjustable flapper. If you're up to it, you just remove the Champion tank (the only thing "4" about the champion is the size of the largest point in the funnel, the hole in the tank is still 3"), remove the old valve, install the new valve, and reinstall the tank. Just a thought for the future. If I had a Champion, I would have already replaced the flush valve.
 

robbiesd

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Replaced the white flush tower with the green type a few years ago, had to replace the green type a couple of years later and now it needs replaced another time after less than 10 months - GARBAGE! Just ordered the Korky K835-10 based on the suggestions here, hoping it will hold up for a long time like any other flapper type. It's in a rental so it's even more frustrating as I have to disturb the tenants. Have Toto's in my home - I swear by them! I'll never have another AS Champion! Could have tried the Korky 450 BP/CM seal but the heck with that AS valve.
 
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