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Thread: Lawsuit or Recall of Am,Standard Champion toilets ?

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    Question Lawsuit or Recall of Am,Standard Champion toilets ?

    Has their been a class action lawsuit or recall of American Standard Champion toilets ?
    Last edited by Terry; 09-02-2012 at 08:41 AM. Reason: added link

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    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Your source for info is www.cpsc.gov

    I went there and seached toilets, found none. Searched American Standard and found some HVAC stuff, nothing in the plumbing arena.

    If you have followed various plumbing forums, you already know that there seemed to be a lot of earlier issues with the Champion, but the Champion 4 may have most of it resolved. The Cadet 3 is probably the best performance/value choice in the AmStd lineup, if you don't like pressure assisted toilets.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    If you have the Champion with the flush tower, you may want to ask American Standard for the replacement flush valve.
    Don't forget a 1/2" deep socket to remove the tank nuts.

    http://www.americanstandardclassaction.com/


    Notice the factory chip out of the right side of the tank lid,
    It's been sanded and glazed over at the factory, and sold that way.
    I guess a broken lid is good enough to sell.
    Last edited by Terry; 02-24-2008 at 04:49 PM.

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    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I guess a broken lid is good enough to sell.
    Yeah, who's going to notice it in the back there? Put a doily on it or something.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Yeah, who's going to notice it in the back there? Put a doily on it or something.
    To a plumber, it does make a difference. When I send a plumber out with a toilet, and it's broken at the factory, it's becomes a waste of time.
    This particular tank had been bought at a home center, but I were the one supplying it, it would mean a second trip to bring back a good one.
    I've also seen factory patch jobs in the tank that weeped water onto the floor, and I've also seen the comments about patch jobs on lower trapways that leaked.
    As an installing plumber, I don't think I should have to expect to carry two tanks, two bowls, to make sure I have one toilet to install.
    If I'm finding that they are putting "B" grade product in the boxes, I'm not going to be going out of my way to unload them for the manufacturer.
    It's my name and reputation on the block.

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    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    I've also seen the comments about patch jobs on lower trapways that leaked.
    After I experienced that twice I stopped buying Am. Std.

    Fool me once shame on you!
    Fool me twice shame on me!
    Fool me three times... I'd have to be a freakin masochist!

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    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Your source for info is www.cpsc.gov

    I went there and seached toilets, found none. Searched American Standard and found some HVAC stuff, nothing in the plumbing arena.

    If you have followed various plumbing forums, you already know that there seemed to be a lot of earlier issues with the Champion, but the Champion 4 may have most of it resolved. The Cadet 3 is probably the best performance/value choice in the AmStd lineup, if you don't like pressure assisted toilets.
    This site would only have information on product safety related recalls...
    Not nusances like the Chumpian defects

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    We have the original Champion toilets that we bought in 2005.

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    DIY Member plumbtired's Avatar
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    Unhappy Seconds R Us...@ HD, anyway

    Home Depot is known to carry seconds (haven't heard that about Lowes, though). I'd bet the pictured defective tank cover was a HD purchase!

    Per the Champion defects: American Standard is replacing the miserable piston-style flush valve with the flapper style, as shown in Terry's photo. It's a world of difference on how the Champion toilet performs...well worth the replacement's hassle of removing the tank, then re-seating it.

    Per the vendors selling the Champion (like Home Depot = HD): their sales people are absolutely ignorant of the problems of the Champion and the piston-style flush valve. I happened to be in HD a couple of weeks ago, looking for replacement parts for a faucet, when I overheard a frustrated customer telling an HD employee about his leaking toilet and not being able to find a replacement seal or flush valve (he was clutching two close-but-no-cigars replacements in his hands). I butted into the conversation and told the customer and HD employee that a phone call to American Standard would solve the issue. I informed both of them there was a free replacement flapper style flush valve being provided by American Standard... and I mentioned this forum, my source of the replacement flush valve information! I do wonder if the HD employee informed others in his department of this issue...fat chance!

    And, shame on American Standard for not recalling all those pesky piston-style valves, providing information to the vendors, like HD, about this issue.
    American business at its finest = beware, customer!

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    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plumbtired View Post
    Per the vendors selling the Champion (like Home Depot = HD): their sales people are absolutely ignorant of the problems of the Champion and the piston-style flush valve.
    That sounds like the biggest load of stuff that ever fell out from under a bulls tail!

    Big Box knows full well about the defective junk they sell! They see the returns! They deal with the angry customers! They are trained to be nice and tell the customer to call the manufacturers @ 1-800.... They have done their job Big Box is off the hook! The customer is in limbo with junk product in their home! And big box is still pushing piggies out the door!

    Ya should have seen the guy at Lowes when I asked him if the Zurn PEX fittings they were still selling were the ones covered under the Class Action Lawsuit! He couldn't get away from me fast enough!
    Last edited by Redwood; 02-26-2008 at 06:18 AM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by plumbtired View Post
    ....Per the Champion defects: American Standard is replacing the miserable piston-style flush valve with the flapper style, as shown in Terry's photo. It's a world of difference on how the Champion toilet performs...well worth the replacement's hassle of removing the tank, then re-seating it. .......
    At the Am Std website, the Champion being sold has a piston-style flush valve.

    Meet the ChampionŽ 4:
    Elongated Right Height siphon action jetted bowl
    EverCleanŽ Surface
    Low-consumption (6.0 Lpf/1.6 gpf)
    4" piston action Accelerator™ flush valve
    12" (305mm) rough-in
    2-3/8" fully-glazed trapway
    Rim height at 16-1/2" (419mm)
    100% factory flush tested
    2 bolt caps
    Seat not included
    10 year warranty

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netmouse View Post
    At the Am Std website, the Champion being sold has a piston-style flush valve.
    You are correct that that's how they still describe it. The flush valve is a marketing gimmick (the flush hole really isn't 4"; it's 3"). It's there to convince people that there is something special about their flush valve that makes the water go faster or enhances the flush. There isn't -- not more than a 3" valve anyway. Reflects the American approach: try to make a lot of drama about "pushing the stuff down", rather than quietly opening and smoothing the trapway so the stuff just quietly slides out of the bowl with just a little push, like Toto does.

    They originally had a "tower" flush valve that went click-clack and looked like a shock-absorber which they called a piston. It was a huge disaster, a leak-o-matic. They tried to improve it but it still was a problem, so they decided to replace it. But they needed something cool and different LOOKING to replace it. And got Fluidmaster to make them the current thing. Since "piston-action" is a meaningless phrase, I guess they can call anything, including this dumb thing, a piston, and I guess they did so to keep the "piston action" marketing material consistent.

    Nice catch. To us, the piston (i.e. the old tower flush valve) is history, but to them, the old piston has been replaced with a new piston. Which doesn't look or act like a piston, so go figure.

    PS I should add to this that one of the most amusing and dumb things in the latest Consumer Reports article on toilets is their statement that old flapper flush valves are being replaced with modern plastic ones, which should be more reliable. There are so many laughable statements in there I just don't know where to begin. Remember when Consumer Reports actually used scientists to do evaluations? The AS "modern" "plastic" valves have been disasters. At the end of the day, of course, plastic doesn't seal holes, rubber (and its ilk) does. Using more plastic and less rubber doesn't make the thing more reliable. AS learned this when having to agree to replace every tower flush valve ever sold for free, after first trying a modified design which didn't work. What was the big change from the first Tower flush valve to the second? More rubber. Still didn't fix it. What does the "accelerator" have over the Tower? More rubber. And it's still something of a pain to repair. Pretty humorously, AS's toilet fixing web tool (which gives wrong answers to many simple questions) frequently recommends that you just change the whole flush valve. Right. Because changing the seal seems to be a challenging task for many, unlike changing those "old style" flappers.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 08-31-2012 at 09:57 AM.

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    DIY Junior Member JHZR2's Avatar
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    Hello,

    I have a champion from around 2010. It doesn't have the piston, but does indeed leak so I hear the water coming to fill it back.

    Can anyone advise the best approach for the flap style champion to fix leaking? Are parts the same uncommon issue like the piston?

    Thanks to this site and the great review and info areas, we know what to ask for next time, which will be soon as we are redoing another bathroom...

    Thanks!

  14. #14
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
    Hello,

    I have a champion from around 2010. It doesn't have the piston, but does indeed leak so I hear the water coming to fill it back.

    Can anyone advise the best approach for the flap style champion to fix leaking? Are parts the same uncommon issue like the piston?

    Thanks to this site and the great review and info areas, we know what to ask for next time, which will be soon as we are redoing another bathroom...

    Thanks!
    Korky makes a Champion 4 flush valve seal: http://korky.com/Flapper450BP.html Korky is the company that invented the flapper, makes one of the fill valves used on Toto toilets, and makes factory-OEM replacement parts for Toto fill valves and Fits Toto flappers, all manufactured here in the USA. A number of the pros on here recommend their fill valve and flapper for Toto toilets, and at least one highly-respected pro here says that he always uses a Korky flapper when replacing a flapper on a generic toilet.

    Check the instructions here:http://korky.com/PDF/450BP.pdf and see if it fits the system in your tank (i.e. compare tank number as shown in the instructions).

    Looks like a pretty simple fix (although not as simple as just replacing a flapper...)

    If you can't find it at your local hardware store (my local ACE carries it), HD has it in the stores (and only in the store) for $5.98 but uses part number 450CM (rather than 450BP). Same product, but likely packaged differently. (BP likely stands for "Blister Pack") You can use the HD online tool here to check if your local store has it: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...&storeId=10051 (Click the "Pick Up In Store Button" and input your zip code to see the purported local stock level.)

    You can also get the original AS seal online. Part No. 7301111-0070A. If it were I, however, I would get the Korky product because experience tells me their stuff is going to be much-higher-quality than the AS product, which they just get someone to bang out at the cheapest possible price.

    PS I notice that one of the HD product reviews recommends that you leave the old seal in and put this one on top. I wouldn't do that. This seal should replace, not supplement, the original seal.
    Last edited by Terry; 02-16-2014 at 05:32 PM.

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    DIY Junior Member JHZR2's Avatar
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    Wow, wjcandee, thanks so very much for that info. Will pick up one of those to do the fix.

    Thanks very much!

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