Redgard for tiled shower? Waterproof...

[Keith the tile guy]

RedGard is a great product when installed properly. It is approved for walls, ceilings, shower pan liners...and yes, even steam
showers.

I have been a pro for 25 years and the stuff has not failed me yet...and I have been using it since it first came out.
IMHO, it is much easier than kerdi and nobleseal.

I always use mesh tape around the drains and where 2 surfaces meet. It allows you to encapsulate the entire shower from
the ceiling to the drain. You can brush, roll, and even spray it on ( use a size 25 to 29 tip ) and man it goes on quick.

It's perm rating is great and test show that when cured, it can stretch 5 1/2x it's size without leaking. Now why wouldn't
anyone want to use a product like that?

I often hear tile guys put down Redgard, saying Kerdi this or Noble that...and scratch my head....as it can marry to an adjustable ring drain and is so quick and can carry a Manufacturer's LIFETIME WARRANTY...yeah you read that right.

Build dozens of tile showers in a new hotel....and tell me that manually applying Kerdi or Noble is quicker than spraying 45 mil
of Redgard.....cause it aint so.

My opinion....Worth the price charged

[johnfrwhipple]

...My opinion....Worth the price charged...

Keith that is CX's tag line. The Bird Guy.

Keith can you share some work pictures with us? How many coats with a brush to make the 45 mil coverage requirement for steam showers. I would think about 4-5.

How long does it take to clean your sprayer after you use it? I would imagine your not spraying 45 mil all in one go.

Where are the test results you mention in your post?

I would believe you more if you had a larger post count and not a whopping one post. If you could upload a few work pictures and a link to your company I would further believe your claims. Until such time I'll chalk your post up to "Online Spamming" the kind we see from industry reps, local stores and paid marketing professionals. I hope you prove me wrong and you share this information with us.

JW

[Ceci]

Hi John,

I have a question if you don't mind. Would it create a problem if one were to do the preslope, then put in a Oatey pan liner, then the final mudbed, and then redgard the whole thing? Just asking since someone who came out to my house stated he does it that way. Never heard of using both the Oatey pan liner and the redgard over the final mud bed. He would use the redgard over the Hardieboard shower walls also as the way to waterproof them.

Thanks,
Ceci

[jadnashua]

That's not a good idea. If everything was perfect, it might work out. If the weep holes were compromised, you'd end up with moisture trapped between the two layers. If you want a surface membrane, use a surface membrane, either a painted on one or a fabric. Don't try to mix systems. All of the approved methods stick to one means of waterproofing. A surface membrane has advantages - much less to get saturated, quicker drying times, and, therefore, a lower chance of mold. Mold requires three things: moisture, spores (can't really get rid of them), and food. You can minimize food by being meticulous in your cleaning regimen, but few people are - those nooks and crannies are tough to keep squeaky clean.

[johnfrwhipple]

Hi John,

I have a question if you don't mind. Would it create a problem if one were to do the preslope, then put in a Oatey pan liner, then the final mudbed, and then redgard the whole thing? Just asking since someone who came out to my house stated he does it that way. Never heard of using both the Oatey pan liner and the redgard over the final mud bed. He would use the redgard over the Hardieboard shower walls also as the way to waterproof them.

Thanks,
Ceci

Noble Company makes some of the best liners in the city and also a simple weep hole protector to take all the worries out of blocking them up. Candle wick can also be used to remove this fear. Noble sells them for less than $5.00 (https://www.noblecompanyonlinestore....=sc&brdct=true).

It is funny that the double protection scenerio comes up as I was just at Mapei's training facility here in Vancouver a couple weeks back at this exact scenerio was advertised as a "Belt & Suspenders" approach.

There are a couple of things to watch out for.

1). If there is two much moisture in the mud bed it will cause the Red Guard to blister. This happens I believe when the moisture is fighting to get out. This will happen with Aqua D, Hydro Ban or any of the liquids if the base has not cured out. For a dry pack I would wait two weeks at least. For a Mapecum screed mortar base about three days.

2). The corners and change in plane I feel need fabric to reinforce them.

3). Regardless of the care you take you still have only the liner set into the clamping drain.

4). Most liners come with a one year warranty as they shrink and break down over time. Find a better liner (again look into Noble's liner)

I would not be scared about this approach but would inquire into the timeline of events. You do not want this scenerio rushed.

Ask your tile setter if he has worked with the Noble Flex Flashing. This can turn any clamping drain into a "Kerdi Like" drain with a large surface area to tie in your liquid waterproofing material. Get a good plan of attack and check with Noble and your liquid waterproofing company for approval first. This is one of my favourite upgrades here in Vancouver when we come across a shower with no pre-slope and a cheap liner.

Good Luck.

[johnfrwhipple]

I stumbled upon this link on Shower Liner Flood tests and thought I would share it.

Here is the ICC's take on "Flood Testing" Shower pan liners.

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...-P-2009-000019

JW

[jadnashua]

Except during a flood test, a typical shower should never see much of any liquid water on the liner; and, if it is constructed properly, any that does get there will flow to the drain through the weep holes, if that kind of a drain is utilized and the liner is properly sloped (people that put the liner flat on the floor deserve any grief they get!). If it is something like a surface membrane shower, there may not be any weep holes, and, since it is then immediately beneath the tile which should be bonded well with thinset, there couldn't be much liquid water there at all since the thinset and tile are nearly a solid mass, bonded to the surface membrane.

Kerdi tends to bead water if you just drop some on the surface, so if you flooded it, it could take awhile for it all to become totally wetted, thus the initial drop in level. Then, any exposed thinset would absorb a little as well. Once equilibrium has been reached, except for evaporation, it should be stable. A drop after that reaching that initial equilibrium would indicate a leak.

[johnfrwhipple]

Water levels do not drop when doing a flood test.

This - like much of Jim's advice I'm sure he picked up reading posts on John Bridge's forum. Kerdi does not repel water and rarely beads water. It might bead if you just unrolled some and the roll still has a static charge from unrolling.

When introduced to water Kerdi in fact "Wicks" water - much like Noble Seal TS, Dal Seal, Wall Seal and so on.

A drop of 1/8" in a standard shower represents a drop of roughly 4 bottles of wine in water volume.

Shower's take time to dry out after each use and water does not "Flow" through mortar but wick with the help of gravity through the mortar and along the waterproofing membrane. Any path out of the shower will see water passage. If it is a poor seam in your Kerdi, your Noble, your Hydro Ban you can be sure that will be the spot that sees the most water migration. This is why you need to flood test your showers.



If Kerdi "Repelled Water" ask yourself why it wicks up this Kerdi test box I made.

If this job had been "Flood Tested" or installed properly we might not have had to rip it all out.



Waterproofing membranes are not Magic. They will leak - even with a pinhole.

I have read numerous times online that Kerdi is "Hydrophobic" and even with a pinhole will not leak.



Guess what? It does. And so do the rest of them.

How do you tell if you have a pinhole - Flood testing.

We get a lot of recommendations on Terry's site for Kerdi products. Mostly from Jim. Remember Jim never worked in this industry and his buddies all promote Kerdi and Kerdi books online. Jim has never shown us a flood tests nor does he post pictures of his projects - most likely because he has none or is not impressed with the finished product.


Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon - it will not "Float on Kerdi". What a load of crap.....

If you fill up your Kerdi shower pan and mark the water level (wait about 5-10 minutes for the water to stop moving around) and the water level drops 1/8" in the first hour.

Pull the plug - you have a leak

[johnfrwhipple]

This thread was about "Red Guard" for shower construction.

It might help some people to make their minds up about a shower waterproofing system if they knew that with the right selection of Custom Building Products products you can get a 25 year warranty.

25 years is a long warranty in this business. The longest out there. Tied with Laticrete's.

How confident do you think a company is to offer up a 25 year warranty?

Now you don't get that working over drywall. And you don't get that with a dry set or un-modified thinset but if you use "Wonder Board" or Custom's cement board and their premium modified thin set you do. 25 years is a great warranty.

Or you can use Laticrete's products and get the same (again some certain products need to be used, ie no drywall etc).

I believe Schluter offers a 5 year limited warranty. Which company do you think has more faith in their products? You can read all the disclaimers on the Kerdi warranty here. The warranty info is on page 39. Look at the bottom in a section all it's own a paragraph reviewing the fact that no oral warranties are allowed. This means no Schluter rep can give you advice outside the published Kerdi install instructions and you will still have a warranty unless you get permission first from head office.

Red Guard 25 year warranty option
Laticrete 25 year warranty option
Mapei 15 year warranty option
Kerdi 5 year warranty option.

Who makes the better products?

[jadnashua]

A big baking pan left out in my home, filled to the brim, was down more than an 1/8" in 24-hours. Now, add the fleece on the waterproofing membrane to the sides, and it could easily have been more. Vancouver's average humidity levels are pretty high. Some places are not. Then, throw in central heating, with or without humidification, and the variances you'll get can be significant from season to season and home to home. To state the level will not drop is condition dependent, and ignoring simple physics. Any evidence of moisture penetrating things is a cause for concern and remedy...a slight drop, may not be. Any rapid drop is a great concern.

Your box, coated with Kerdi does not appear to be well adhered to the substrate with a full coat of thinset. For the material and seams to work, both they and the entire material needs to be properly embedded. I've touched a cardboard box, filled with ice and water for months, waterproofed with Kerdi only on the inside that was still intact, entirely dry. Installed properly, it does not leak. No special materials used...just Kerdi and thinset plus good technique. If you can't replicate that, you're doing something wrong.

A Hyundai has a 10-year warranty on the drivetrain...a Mercedes 4-years...which is a better car? The length of a warranty isn't necessarily an indication of quality.

[johnfrwhipple]

Down an 1/8" overnight. So 1" of water in your town evaporates in 8 days Jim. Wow. I had no idea!!!

Perhaps then in your neck of the woods when preforming a flood test a person should fill a dish with one inch of water. Measure the time it takes to evaporate and then do the math on the evaporation levels.

The test box I made was well set and installed as per Schluter Instructions.

Did you document the evaporation results Jim?

Can you show us another example? Perhaps do two inches and see if that evaporates in 16 days?

[jadnashua]

I went away for two weeks and the (lid-closed) toilet bowl was down a couple of inches...relative humidity levels vary radically across the country. Flat saying any water sitting out will not drop in level is just wrong...it may be true in the summer without a/c and close to 100% RH, but not in many locales. All I can tell you is that I filled the pan to the brim - overflowing, and the next day, it was down over 1/8". No fans running (radiant heat), the pan sitting in the sink.

[johnfrwhipple]

Can you show us another example? Perhaps do two inches and see if that evaporates in 16 days?

[ggoose]

Hello John,

Interesting posts. I was wondering if you might elaborate on the process of setting the 3-piece drain using Redgard as the liner. I think I have it figured out from your photos, but am not quite sure.
Thanks...

ggoose

[johnfrwhipple]

Hello John,

Interesting posts. I was wondering if you might elaborate on the process of setting the 3-piece drain using Redgard as the liner. I think I have it figured out from your photos, but am not quite sure.
Thanks...

ggoose

Liquid membranes are approved with the use of a three piece drain but this is a very risky install. The connection point at the clamping drain to the pre-slope is critical.

Noble Company makes a Drain Flashing that I have used outside their printed instructions before with good success but I hate doing this since I loose any manufacture warranty.

Mapei makes a drain flashing that I have used once before and I have not finished fine tuning my install system there.

Both Mapei and Laticrete make a reinforcing fabric for the liquids. I'm sure Red Guard has one similar. I would strongly urge you to use this fleece fabric to re-inforce your shower drain connection, the entire shower floor and floor to wall transitions.

It takes three coats by brush to achieve thickness levels required in the liquid membranes.

I would first coat the entire shower with one coat and let dry overnight. The next morning coat again and embed the fleece and top. Let dry overnight. Third coat the next morning and let cure until the next day.

Your pre-slope needs to be fully cured and rock solid for this procedure. Look into the divot method online and call Custom's tech department once you have a plan and bounce it by them.

If you have every used chaulking for crown molding or baseboards you might have seen how chaulking can shrink and crack once painted. Over applying these liquid membranes will net you the same result. three coats are safer than two heavy coats.

If you apply the products to thick they will break down and the polymers will leach out in the flood testing.

Good Luck!

JW