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Thread: Pressure tank, CSV & pressure cutoff questions

  1. #1

    Default Pressure tank, CSV & pressure cutoff questions

    Hi - I am a newbee to the forum - but looks great!

    Background: My house is ~ 30 years old and I am the 3rd owner. I have a well & septic and the ground water has high iron content.

    My water system is as follows:
    600' deep well (deepened & fracked ~ 10 yrs ago from 250')
    1.5 HP Gould pump - 7 GPM
    WM9 pressure tank
    (all above ~ 10 yrs old)
    complex water fiiltration system... (4 yrs old)
    sand filter
    iron filter
    PH filter

    Problem: This week (of course while I was traveling) my wife calls with no water... We call in guys who put in water system when we bought the house. They replace mechanical part of pressure switch (prior year when I was traveling had same problem and they replaced electrical side of this switch - why they didn't replace both is beyond me)

    Tech told my wife that the pressure tank's bladder appears to have a leak as it was loosing pressure and that I should get a new tank.

    My house has awful plumbing job - 3/4" and 1/2" water pipes for large colonial - poor pressure...

    Questions:

    Using calculator from Wellmate site it recommends 80 gal pressure tank.
    Water company confirmed
    $500 is about the best price I can find

    I asked well guys about CSV and they did not recommend them - I can't tell if that is because they cut down on their business or if they have reliability problems or if with my poor quality (really high iron) I'd have problems.

    Looking for system recommendations:

    80 Gal wellmate
    Smaller wellmate with CSV
    other...

    If CSV:
    CSV OK with poor water quality
    Plastic vs bronze CSV

    Also - if I increase my pressures 50/80 vs 40/60 will that cause premature failure of my pump?

    Thx in advance for the help.

    Dan

  2. #2
    Rancher
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    The CSV will keep your pump from cycling as much, about half.

    I sent you a private message.

    Rancher

  3. #3

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    Bob - my typical MO is to learn about things and fix them myself. Issue with last few problems is they always seem to occur when I am on the road - and my wife is not a happy camper w/o water... :-) When the prior service call replaced the switch - I had assumed (incorrectly) that they replaced the entire switch and not just the electrical contacts.

    Rancher - will check your PM

    All - any issues with running with higher cutout pressures? Hoping to be able to partially overcome lousy waster pressure on 2nd floor w/o having to re-plumb the house.

  4. #4

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    Thx Rancher - Speedbump's tanks look to be 150 or so cheaper depending on shipping.

  5. #5
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH View Post
    I would put in a tank around 40 gallons.

    There are those who have different opinions, but I would not put a CSV on a 7 GPM 1.5 HP pump. A CSV forces the pump to run a lot longer (constantly whenever you are using more than 1 gallon per minute as in filling a toilet or taking a shower) and that will cost a good bit of power for a 1.5 HP pump. I suspect that if you are paying someone to install it that a smaller tank and CSV will cost you more than the larger tank.
    IMO he should go with the CSV and the small tank although he may pay for more electric but it would be very little. You have to compare the much lower price for a <$100 CSV and a small tank to the price of the larger tank and the costs of possibly pulling and then replacing a 1.5 hp 7 gpm pump 500+ feet deep years sooner than he would with a CSV.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #6
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    You have been having too many problems in the past. The wife not being without water is THE most important thing. A Cycle Stop Valve makes the pump run longer, which prevents most of the problems that destroy pressure switches, pressure tank bladders, control boxes, start switches, and especially pumps and motors. Any increase in power consumption is minimal and more than worth the added benefits of the CSV. Not to mention the "constant pressure" from the CSV will deliver better pressure to your upper floors and through the smaller pipes. Then the WM9 size tank or even a WM6 size tank, as I have at my house on a 25 GPM pump, would be more than adequate and even best for your system. This would save considerable money over the 80 gallon tank, would be about the same as a 40 gallon tank, and would work better than either of them.

    The depth of the well and having only a 7 GPM pump, limit the advantages of the CSV compared to pumps of higher volume. However, there are many benefits to using the CSV even with just a 7 GPM pump.

    Your local pump installers are most likely just a few years behind the technology. A continuing education class or two would certainly be good for them. Most installers are not very Internet friendly so, many of them find out about new products such as the CSV from their customers. I just spent a few days at the Texas Ground Water Association trade show and classes and was told this by several installers. Any recommendation against using a CSV comes from a lack of understanding. If you have any questions call 800-652-0207 or go to
    www.cyclestopvalves.com

  7. #7
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    Default Listen to Valveman!

    Valveman knows what he's talking about. Women like constant pressure! Install a CSV!

  8. #8
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    That hasn't been my experience with the 1.5 hp 5 and 7 gpm Gould's pumps I've seen on PE pipe to 500' deep in wells with the PE being frozen Bob but... the pressure rating of sch 40 PVC is 420 @ 73f IIRC. And I think the burst rating on PE is consderably higher than its 160 or 200 psi operating rating; my feeble memory seems to be telling me it's like 500 psi but I may be wrong.

    Have you actually experienced or seen or heard any homeowner with or without a CSV have any deadhead pressure busting PE on a residential size pump Bob?

    How about others, Speedpump, Valveman, Porky etc.?

    I haven't seen or heard of it but listening to BobNH it sounds like it would be rather common what with all the CSVs that have been sold on other than galvanized or sch 80 or higher rated PVC.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #9
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    There have been no problems with pipe bursting with a CSV. However, the back pressure is one thing that we always take into account. I have no argument with the pumps back pressure numbers by BobNH. The pressure rating of the drop pipe is really all that is effected. I do not know what the rating for poly pipe would be. However, 1" sch 80 PVC is good to 630 PSI, threading lessens that to 315 PSI, which is still OK. Galv pipe would take much more pressure than that. I would say that if your pipe can't handle that much pressure, it shouldn't be responsible for holding up a pump that is 600' deep either.

  10. #10
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    That hasn't been my experience with the 1.5 hp 5 and 7 gpm Gould's pumps I've seen on PE pipe to 500' deep in wells with the PE being frozen Bob but... the pressure rating of sch 40 PVC is 420 @ 73f IIRC. And I think the burst rating on PE is consderably higher than its 160 or 200 psi operating rating; my feeble memory seems to be telling me it's like 500 psi but I may be wrong.

    Have you actually experienced or seen or heard any homeowner with or without a CSV have any deadhead pressure busting PE on a residential size pump Bob?
    As a professional engineer, licensed to practice the profession, I make it a point to not install equipment or materials where they are likely to be exposed to environments for which they are not rated.

    That involves knowing what the environment is and selecting products that have been designed, tested, and rated to provide margins of safety appropriate for the application.

    I don't work with deep wells and have not seen any failures of pipe in the well, but have seen the subject discussed several times in this forum. No pipe that I have ever selected or installed has ever failed in this mode and I would never expect it to fail for the reason described in the first paragraph.

    Rated properties of materials such as pipe are based on testing to demonstrate suitable margins of safety for the benefit of the user. I have seen polyethylene pipe fail where it was scratched due to handling, and have seen it fail where it pulled off a fitting. Those conditions are related to the pressure.

    I know that certain sizes of Schedule 40 PVC are rated greater than 290 psi which is the expected limit of pressure for the case being discussed here. I also note that every case where there has been any discussion in this forum about installing PVC in deep wells the recommendation has always been to use Schedule 80 PVC.

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    BobNH, you said: I don't work with deep wells and have not seen any failures of pipe in the well,

    You also said, in relation to PE pipe: but have seen the subject discussed several times in this forum.

    And then you said: I know that certain sizes of Schedule 40 PVC are rated greater than 290 psi which is the expected limit of pressure for the case being discussed here.

    You also say: I also note that every case where there has been any discussion in this forum about installing PVC in deep wells the recommendation has always been to use Schedule 80 PVC.

    I do not recall that, except in those cases where sch 40 wouldn't do the job based on the depth to the pump being over 500'. And I historically I have always suggested PE to 500'.

    Here is a link to the PE I've used. When temperature compensated (12%/10*f below 73.4*f) for 45*f, my local groundwater temp, I all but cover your 290 psi example with 200 psi rated PE. I didn't look it up but I think sch 40 PVC does better than PE.

    http://www.endot.com/support/install...?Ins=waterpipe
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #12

    Default HOT water not a torch on PE pipe

    Thanks Gary for your link - lots of great information.

    Your own posting has solved once and for all the debate about your earlier directions to the public to take a torch to the pipe to make the connections.

    Your supplied link says in very BOLD type to never use a torch on the pipe, but to use hot water. That's what I have done for years and my previous postings to that effect were deleted by our mod who apparently also likes torches.

    Don't tell me ENDOT corp is posting this for the sake of foolish homeowners that do not have the skills of the pro's. Endot has seen failures from such actions and its time that this forum take the high ground and let this post and Mr slussers link remain on line.

    For instance; PEX must be expanded with the MFGrs tools and to their specifications. Would you use a tapered drift, vise grips and a hammer to expand PEX? I think not. So why not follow the MFGrs specs for warming PE pipe? Is hot water so hard to make?

    I havent tried it on PE but its pretty common here to bend PVC after a short rest inside the trucks tail pipe. In a pinch that might be safer than a torch on PE.

  13. #13
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Raucina, if you had experience doing this kind of work in our trade, you would realize how ridiculous your comment is about using a torch on poly pipe. You are definitely somebody looking on the outside in. Try making phone calls to some water well and even plumbing companies, and ask them about your boiled water techniques. I guarantee you will be laughed at like a clown.

  14. #14
    Well Driller, pump installer, engineer pitless's Avatar
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    To get back to one of the earlier questions. It will not hurt the pump to turn up the pressure of the water system. This is the same principal the cycle stop valve works on. No harm to the pump it it will make the pressure.

    You mentioned 50-80 psi. You should keep the differental to 20 psi, 50-70 or 60-80.

    If I were you I would replace the pressure switch that was rebuilt. It is likely that there is iron built up in the nipple going to it and this may have been your problem. Also check the air in your tank and the time for a cycle to make sure your tank is bad. If the tank is bad then I think there is enough information presented for you to make an informed choice.

  15. #15
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina View Post
    Thanks Gary for your link - lots of great information.

    Your own posting has solved once and for all the debate about your earlier directions to the public to take a torch to the pipe to make the connections.
    Obviously you skipped my explicit instructions of how to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina View Post
    Your supplied link says in very BOLD type to never use a torch on the pipe, but to use hot water. That's what I have done for years and my previous postings to that effect were deleted by our mod who apparently also likes torches.
    Trust me, they weren't deleted for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina View Post
    Don't tell me ENDOT corp is posting this for the sake of foolish homeowners that do not have the skills of the pro's.
    Actually they say you can use hot water as an example of how to heat it. And if you read the whole thing you'll also see that they say not to heat it over 200*f. Now you tell me, do you think it makes a difference of what heat source is used? They mention the sun too IIRC. I and others have learned how to use the heat from a torch, I use propane, and heat my PE inside and out very lightly and carefully until it is barely warm in and outside for the length of the barbed end of the fitting. If I used hot water and dried it or sun light, you couldn't tell the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina View Post
    For instance; PEX must be expanded with the MFGrs tools and to their specifications.
    Actually there's only ONE brand of PEX or fittings that require expansion of the tubing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina View Post
    I havent tried it on PE but its pretty common here to bend PVC after a short rest inside the trucks tail pipe. In a pinch that might be safer than a torch on PE.
    Yeah all that soot and the gases would be great for potable water line but it's guys like that that the no torch rule was made for.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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