Artesian spring from mountain feeding ranch

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Ibuildall

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I am trying to repair a water system feeding a ranch There is a spring coming from the mountain probably a couple of hundred feet above the ranch. There are three 5000 gal tanks located below the spring and three more 5000 gal tanks. below the upper three. From there the three tanks drop down to the ranch and pastures. All the three tanks that are together are plumbed in series and then feed to the tanks below, which are also in series and then feed to the ranch.
The questrions are without having to go up the mountian and open and close valves all the time,
1. how do you plumb the system in a way that all the tanks can be filled without the upper tanks over filling the tanks below them.
2. How can the tanks shut off when filled?
3. How can you maintain consistent pressure as you drop in elevation from tanks to tanks to ranch.
4. How do you have the excess water circulate into the system and release excess water automatically and maintain a full system. Are there any books or literature where I can learn more in getting an idea on how to make this system work?
JEFF
 
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Cass

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You would need valves that work like a toilet fill valve where as the water level went up...the valve would close.

When the water level went down the valve opens.
 

Speedbump

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I'm not sure why you have all those tanks unless the stream doesn't flow enough to keep up with demand. With a couple hundred feet of elevation above you, you would have 86 lbs of constant pressure with proper sized piping. You can keep it all under pressure with any size pneumatic tank you desire.

bob...
 
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There are three 5000 gal tanks located below the spring and three more 5000 gal tanks. below the upper three. From there the three tanks drop down to the ranch and pastures. All the three tanks that are together are plumbed in series and then feed to the tanks below, which are also in series and then feed to the ranch.
This doesn't make sense... if all 6 tanks are plumbed in series, then you really only have the capacity of one 5,000 gallon tank.

The correct way to design this system is:

Assumuption: The upper 3 tanks are on the same level and the lower 3 tanks are at least one tank height below those 3 and are also on the level.

Plumb the spring into top of the upper 3 tanks plumbed through a float valve and plumb those 3 tanks in parallel, with the output of those 3 tanks plumbed into the top of the 3 lower tanks thru a float valve (or the water will flow out the top of the hatch on the tank), also plumbed in parallel, the output goes on down the hill to the ranch and fields.

1. how do you plumb the system in a way that all the tanks can be filled without the upper tanks over filling the tanks below them.
This system will do that, the spring will fill the upper tanks thru the float valve, and stop when full, the upper tank will fill the lower tanks when there is water demand, and the spring will refill the upper tanks.

2. How can the tanks shut off when filled?
The float valve will take care of that.

3. How can you maintain consistent pressure as you drop in elevation from tanks to tanks to ranch.
You will have constant pressure.

4. How do you have the excess water circulate into the system and release excess water automatically and maintain a full system.
The float valve will take care of that.

Rancher
 

Bob NH

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I am trying to repair a water system feeding a ranch There is a spring coming from the mountain probably a couple of hundred feet above the ranch. There are three 5000 gal tanks located below the spring and three more 5000 gal tanks. below the upper three. From there the three tanks drop down to the ranch and pastures. All the three tanks that are together are plumbed in series and then feed to the tanks below, which are also in series and then feed to the ranch.
The questrions are without having to go up the mountian and open and close valves all the time,
1. how do you plumb the system in a way that all the tanks can be filled without the upper tanks over filling the tanks below them.
2. How can the tanks shut off when filled?
3. How can you maintain consistent pressure as you drop in elevation from tanks to tanks to ranch.
4. How do you have the excess water circulate into the system and release excess water automatically and maintain a full system. Are there any books or literature where I can learn more in getting an idea on how to make this system work?
JEFF

Questions 1 and 2. Float valves as described by CASS. They are available from many places but you can see them on line at:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...ueryString=float+valve&submit.x=13&submit.y=4

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3P937

You will need a float for each valve.

Question 3. The tanks are almost certainly plastic non-pressurized tanks. Therefore, the pressure at each tank is atmospheric pressure and the pressure in a pipe below the tank is 0.433 psi per foot of elevation difference, less any pressure loss due to flow in the pipe. The required size of pipe from the last tank to the ranch and pasture depends on the flow rate (Gallons per minute) and length of the pipe.

To get the most pressure at the ranch and pasture the last tank should be as high as possible up the mountain.

Question 4. You can't circulate the water through the tanks without a pump. You can keep flow going through the tanks to keep them fresh by letting excess water flow through the tanks to drain at the lowest tank.

I started to describe a system for doing this but deleted it because it is too complicated to describe without knowing the differences in elevations of each of the tanks, from highest to lowest, and how much "flow-through" water you want to dump at the lowest tank.

Connecting gravity tanks: You must be VERY CAREFUL in connecting tanks where the flow depends on gravity. If the pipes are not installed so the air can clear out you can get a bubble in the pipe and under certain conditions it will severely diminish or even stop all flow. In general, the pipe from one tank to the next should have NO HUMPS in the pipe at any point and the inlet fitting should NOT be one of those "down pointing" elbows that are often furnished with plastic tanks. If there is such a elbow it should be removed or turned horizontal so there can't be any air trapped in the pipe at the elbow.

Reference Book:
I have a Hydraulic Handbook published by Colt Industries - Pump Division (6th Edition, 1971) that contains all you would need (and a lot more than you will want to learn) for this sort of thing; but I have no idea where you would find one. It looks a lot like the Hydraulic Institute Engineering Data Book that is available at the link, now priced at $79. (Mine is marked $7.50) http://www.pumps.org/content_detail.aspx?id=2498
 

Bob NH

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Or you can get Float Switches

bob...

Perhaps I misunderstood the problem. How will float switches be used to control the gravity flow from the spring to the ranch through six 5000 gallon tanks. I'm sure it can be done, but how is that better than float valves?

The "flow through to keep the water fresh" problem (Original poster's Question 4) can be solved by connecting an overflow pipe from each tank to the next lower one but the details depend on knowing the relative elevations of the tanks.

Even the installation of the float valves requires knowing the relative elevations of the tanks and installing the valves properly to make the full capacity of the tanks available during times when the spring can't keep the tanks full.

With proper engineering the whole system can be made to meet all of the requirements of the original inquiry using only float valves and pipe, without any electricity and without any intervention by an operator.
 
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Speedbump

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Perhaps I misunderstood the problem. How will float switches be used to control the gravity flow from the spring to the ranch through six 5000 gallon tanks. I'm sure it can be done, but how is that better than float valves?

Sorry, I thought you wrote Float Switch. I also have Solonoid Valves that would work with a float and some electricity.

My big question is: Why not just use the pressure already available to operate the home. All the water in the pipe will be air free, so no contamination for quite some time, the creek can still flow normally from up above and no overflow would be required. I have friends in North Carolina that use this system. They just go up the hill (Mountain) far enough to get the pressure they want and stick the end of poly pipe into the stream. If it's too small of a stream, they build a box to collect more water.

bob...
 

Bob NH

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The only reason to install 30,000 gallons worth of storage tanks is because the supply is not reliable during certain seasons of the year.

If the tanks are all at the same elevation, then they can all be filled equally with a single control and a pipe from the last tank will provide substantially constant pressure at the pasture and ranch below the tanks.

However, if the tanks are at different elevations, perhaps because they can't all be installed at the same elevation on the mountainside, then to keep them all full when water is available it is necessary to separately control the level of the tanks at each of the different elevations.

It may also be important to protect against the risk of a broken pipe or fitting dumping all of the water at some time when the supply is low. That requires a bit of planning so that the water can still flow through the series of tanks to keep the water fresh, but will not lose everything if a pipe breaks.
 

Leejosepho

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Reference Book:
I have a Hydraulic Handbook published by Colt Industries - Pump Division (6th Edition, 1971) that contains all you would need (and a lot more than you will want to learn) for this sort of thing; but I have no idea where you would find one. It looks a lot like the Hydraulic Institute Engineering Data Book ...

I did not find that particular book, but there are others here at this great place to search for both new and used books:

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?title=hydraulic+handbook
 

Ibuildall

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Bob, Float valves do regulate what goes in the tank and controls the level of it filling and shutting off, but without paower how would a float vavle work at the topp of the tank and shut off a valve on the exterior fo the tank. This olso doesn;t resolve the problem of the pressure at the differewnt levels The expain again. The springis at onew level, three tanks are below at the next level These three are level with each other, the other three tanks are below the upper three and the ranch is below the lower three tanks. Maybe i just need to install are regular typoew of regulator a the area above each set of tanks and of course there woudl be one at the house. How would we control the safety issue of not loosing all the watewr if a pipe were to break?

JEFF
Perhaps I misunderstood the problem. How will float switches be used to control the gravity flow from the spring to the ranch through six 5000 gallon tanks. I'm sure it can be done, but how is that better than float valves?

The "flow through to keep the water fresh" problem (Original poster's Question 4) can be solved by connecting an overflow pipe from each tank to the next lower one but the details depend on knowing the relative elevations of the tanks.

Even the installation of the float valves requires knowing the relative elevations of the tanks and installing the valves properly to make the full capacity of the tanks available during times when the spring can't keep the tanks full.

With proper engineering the whole system can be made to meet all of the requirements of the original inquiry using only float valves and pipe, without any electricity and without any intervention by an operator.
 

Ibuildall

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Rancher thanks for the info,
To start I was mistaken in ewhat I said . The three tanks on each level are in parallel. I guess with a float valve the pressure would be only from the lower tank. This would change as the level of the water drops, but probably not signicantly as the tank is still way abov the rench. What can you use to prevent a draining of the tanks if a pipe breaks.
This doesn't make sense... if all 6 tanks are plumbed in series, then you really only have the capacity of one 5,000 gallon tank.

The correct way to design this system is:

Assumuption: The upper 3 tanks are on the same level and the lower 3 tanks are at least one tank height below those 3 and are also on the level.

Plumb the spring into top of the upper 3 tanks plumbed through a float valve and plumb those 3 tanks in parallel, with the output of those 3 tanks plumbed into the top of the 3 lower tanks thru a float valve (or the water will flow out the top of the hatch on the tank), also plumbed in parallel, the output goes on down the hill to the ranch and fields.

This system will do that, the spring will fill the upper tanks thru the float valve, and stop when full, the upper tank will fill the lower tanks when there is water demand, and the spring will refill the upper tanks.

The float valve will take care of that.

You will have constant pressure.

The float valve will take care of that.

Rancher
 
R

Rancher

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Rancher thanks for the info,
To start I was mistaken in ewhat I said . The three tanks on each level are in parallel. I guess with a float valve the pressure would be only from the lower tank. This would change as the level of the water drops, but probably not signicantly as the tank is still way abov the rench. What can you use to prevent a draining of the tanks if a pipe breaks.
If the pipes break, you fix them, do you want a back-up system? How far down are the first set of tanks from the second set of tanks? Perhaps there is another solution than the one I suggested.

Rancher
 

Bob NH

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Bob, Float valves do regulate what goes in the tank and controls the level of it filling and shutting off, but without paower how would a float vavle work at the topp of the tank and shut off a valve on the exterior fo the tank. This olso doesn;t resolve the problem of the pressure at the differewnt levels The expain again. The springis at onew level, three tanks are below at the next level These three are level with each other, the other three tanks are below the upper three and the ranch is below the lower three tanks. Maybe i just need to install are regular typoew of regulator a the area above each set of tanks and of course there woudl be one at the house. How would we control the safety issue of not loosing all the watewr if a pipe were to break?

JEFF

I have uploaded a sketch and will describe from that sketch.

1. The spring is connected to Tank #1 via the float valve. The float is set so the tank will be controlled full. The valve can be at any level as long as it is lower than the spring, and as long as the float is set to control at the FULL level of the tank.

2. A 2" pipe connects Tanks 1 and 2, Tanks 2 and 3, Tanks 4 and 5, and Tanks 5 and 6, about 8" below the FULL level.

3. All tanks are connected to a main collector pipe as shown. There is a ball valve from each tank to the collector pipe and there are check valves from Tanks 4, 5, and 6 to prevent the higher tanks from filling the lower tanks via the collector pipe.

4. Tank 3 is connected to Tank 4 through the float valve.

5. There is a "Spill line" about 2" below the control level of Tank 6 to allow spill to waste when there is adequate supply from the spring.

OPERATION
1. The Float Valve in Tank #1 keeps Tanks 1, 2, and 3 full as long as there is adequate supply.

2. The float valve in Tank #4 keeps Tanks 4, 5, and 6 full as long as there is adequate supply in Tank 3.

3. The spill line dumps a small flow to waste when there is enough water to keep the tanks all full. That keeps "fresh water" flowing through the tanks as long as as there is enough water to keep the tanks all full.

4. To supply water to the ranch, open the valve on Tank 6. That will supply water as long as there is water in Tank 6, which will be the case as long as the spring has adequate supply. The closed valves on tanks 1 through 5 will prevent loss of all of the water if there is a break in a water line.

5. If the spring is unable to keep up, open the valve from Tank 5 to make another 5000 gallons available. Open the valves from additional tanks as needed.

There will always be water pressure in the line to the ranch based on the elevation of the lower tanks.

Ibuildall; did you get the PM with the link to the source of the handbook?
 

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Speedbump

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Has the question of why are there 6 tanks been answered? Does this spring stop flowing in the winter, or slow down so much that there is little or no water? Is there not enough room at either location for all six if the above is true?

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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I don't see any mention of water quality and treatment equipment for the house yet... And equipment will certainly be needed using spring water with up to 30,000 gallons being stored for maybe weeks or longer in some type of atmospheric above ground tanks.

I suggest the use of 160-200 psi rated PE pipe instead of sch 40 PVC underground. PVC can break much easier than PE and you can get PE in up to 1000' rolls which speeds up installation and has a lower friction loss per 100'. PE usually costs a fraction of the same length of PVC and the required number of fittings. PE with SS insert/barbed fittings with double opposed SS hose clamps lessens the number of fittings substantially. At the tanks, house and watering troughs etc., use PVC and switch to PE for underground. It rolls into the trench as you walk along the trench, and the trench only has to be a few inches wide.
 
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