Kitchen sink drain pain

Hi gang,

First post on a plumbing forum - usually cars and hifi postings.

I'm in the middle of a kitchen renovation at my brother's place. The problem: I need to re-do the DWV connection for the double sink (all ABS) but the original installation is very tight and is in the wrong place for the new sink. So tight that each connection is made using almost no pipe so I can't just cut a pipe and attach a new fitting to make the extension. There's maybe 1/8" of pipe visible between each of the connections from the trap to the dishwasher "Y" to a 45 to the santee etc.

So, here's the dumb question of the year: is there a proper/accepted way to dismantle a joint on 1-1/2" ABS allowing re-use of a pipe stub or the inside of a mating fitting?

Fortunately I need to make the connection longer, not shorter.

Tks,
AD

They make cutters for PVC that should work on ABS to cut the pipe out of the fitting, but they are expensive. It is a tool only some professionals have. It is cheaper to cut the pipe and start from a different point. I have used a dremel tool and sharp wood chisel to take a pipe out of a fitting, but it is really difficult. I cannot post a link to the tool it is blocked. search PVC+socket saver or pipe hog

Thanks - that does look like an expensive tool. Do you think there'd be a chance of being able to cut the fitting off close to the pipe's end then slot and peel the outer flange away from the pipe? There's one place I could try it first (between sink section).

Cheers,
AD

Although I am aware of them, I have never used the tool mentioned by Construct. However, even if you can get the bit at the correct angle inside the wall I gotta believe you are better off just cutting it out and rerunning the pipe. You're talking about a lot of extra time to go get the bit plus whatever the expense is. If you don't ream it correctly you may end up with a leak. Even if you had to get into a small section of the sub-floor (I'm not sure from your post how inaccessible a section of pipe suitable to tie onto is), the double lav will cover it. Cut it out and re-run it.

I've done that or slotted the pipe out of the fitting and chiseled it out with a small sharp wood chisel. Do not cut too deep and sand it smooth or the new joint will leak. Be patient it takes a while and you can break the pipe, it is easier with the ABS pipe than PVC. The ABS is softer and won't crack as easy. A pro would never even try it except in rare situations.

Use ABS primer/cleaner and ABS solvent cement for your application, multi-purpose glues are a code violation. Accept no substitutes and don't listen to people claiming primer/cleaner is not needed for ABS pipe.

Do NOT mix ABS fittings and pipe with PVC fittings and pipe using mutipurpose glue. Code violation

Does all of Canada use one code? Are you IPC or UPC or something else? I'm using IPC, but I THINK UPC says no multi purpose glue too.

smellslike$tome said:

Although I am aware of them, I have never used the tool mentioned by Construct. However, even if you can get the bit at the correct angle inside the wall I gotta believe you are better off just cutting it out and rerunning the pipe. You're talking about a lot of extra time to go get the bit plus whatever the expense is. If you don't ream it correctly you may end up with a leak. Even if you had to get into a small section of the sub-floor (I'm not sure from your post how inaccessible a section of pipe suitable to tie onto is), the double lav will cover it. Cut it out and re-run it.

Click to expand...

I'd prefer to cut out and re-run the line, but it is completely inaccessible behind finished walls, both in the basement and in the kitchen (outside wall). To compound matters, the vent is dog-legged with a clean-out just above where the santee fits to the drop - again with the handy 1/8" bit of pipe between the fittings. The clean-out disappears into the exterior wall.

The options seem to be:

1) tear out finished walls for access to re-plumb the drain
2) try cutting and chiselling the old joint apart.

Based on this, I might as well try solution 2 first.

Thanks to you and Construct for the advice and Merry Christmass!

AD

PS: not sure about a comprehensive code across Canada - just working to replace a 1980's vintage kitchen using same materials. All will be ABS. Frankly, I never heard of ABS primer, but will be sure to use it in conjunction with the proper cement. I wouldn't even think of mixing PVC or trying a "universal adhesive" - too risky for my taste.

pipe

A pro WOULD try it, even in normal circumstances if the job warranted it. And where would you even find an ABS primer since no one makes it.

hj said:

A pro WOULD try it, even in normal circumstances if the job warranted it. And where would you even find an ABS primer since no one makes it.

Click to expand...

Read this http://www.rectorseal.com/files/263/dsjohn.pdf .

hj said:

A pro WOULD try it, even in normal circumstances if the job warranted it. And where would you even find an ABS primer since no one makes it.

Click to expand...

and this http://www.rectorseal.com/files/267/dssam.htm

I've often removed the pipe from an ABS fitting socket. But that only works with the older, solid pipe. And it doesn't always work.

I start by sawing off the pipe at the face of the fitting. Then I use a plain hacksaw blade to make two cuts inside the pipe, about 3/4" apart, being careful to cut only the pipe, not the hub or the area at the end of the socket.

Then, with a medium-sized blunt screwdriver and hammer, and a little judicious aim, I smack the 3/4" wide space of pipe and knock it loose from the hub.

Then, with the remaining pipe, I start at one edge and "pop" it loose, until I've gone all the way 'round. Sometimes it works well, other times it leaves some glued pipe in the hub.

When replacing the stub with a longer piece, I first apply glue to the socket to soften it a bit, then apply again before I insert the pipe.

hj said:

A pro WOULD try it, even in normal circumstances if the job warranted it. And where would you even find an ABS primer since no one makes it.

Click to expand...

Watch the video here, http://oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/167/ABS+Medium+Black+Cement.html

Oatey says not to use a primer, but to use a cleaner to remove the shine and dirt with theirs, I was wrong I should not have used the term primer. Sanding would probably work too. The cleaner also softens the pipe too. The black ABS solvent starts to scum over rather quick.

hj said:

A pro WOULD try it, even in normal circumstances if the job warranted it. And where would you even find an ABS primer since no one makes it.

Click to expand...

I would try it too, but smellslike$tome evidently wouldn't and I've been shot down for suggesting it before as not cost effective. What do I know? If I said to do it because that's what most people would do then I would have smellslike$tome saying I was wrong. When will some of you learn there is more than one right way to do some things and you should do what works best for you. I really think most high dollar pros would not do it, but that's just my opinion. I really think it is stupid for me to have to put IMO at the beginning of every post.

IMO: The sky was blue today!!!

How about posting a picture? One of us might see something you don't!

I hesitate even to mention this because I hate to do it and would NEVER recommend a ho ever consider even attempting this. The times I have done this it has been to extract pipe from inside the hub of a fitting. It has always been pvc as I have never used abs for anything and very rarely even see it in my area. Also I hesitate because I just got done complaining bitterly about some hack who used a torch to put a bend in pvc pipe rather than go to the supply house to get an 1/8 bend which he obviously didn't have on his truck. This however, is hardly the same thing.

The procedure is essentially the same as what Herk outlined except that before employing the screwdriver and hammer, you take a torch and VERY CAREFULLY heat up the joint in question. YOU MUST NOT LET THE FLAME TOUCH THE PLASTIC AT ALL NOR CAN YOU ALLOW THE PLASTIC TO HEAT TOO QUICKLY SO THAT IT BEGINS TO BUBBLE. You do this by holding the tip in line with the flow through the pipe above the joint so that you are actually sending the heat inside the opening of the pipe. You must do this slowly. As the joint heats up it will soften. Periodically use a flat head screwdriver to check and see if the pipe is ready to peal away from the hub or vice versa whichever the case may be. If you under heat the joint it will not peal. If you overheat the joint the hub may warp from the heat. When properly heated you should be able to start the pipe separating with the screwdriver and once you can get hold of it with your channel locks, continue pealing the pipe out until it is completely gone. When you do it this way and don't overheat you should not be left with any chips left inside the hub and you won't fracture the hub (or the pipe whichever you are trying to save) by striking it with a hammer and screwdriver. Sometimes the hub (or pipe) will warp. If this happens reheat enough to soften the hub and reshape it to its original shape.

I don't know if this will work with abs since I have never tried.

THIS IS DANGEROUS! If pvc gets hot enough it will emit toxic vapors and could kill you. It does not have to burn or even smoke to do this. This is an absolute last resort. Just about the only time I end up having to do this is when I have to try to save a fitting that is partly in and partly out of a slab.

I AM NOT ADVISING ANYONE TO ATTEMPT THIS PROCEDURE ESPECIALLY HOME OWNERS, HANDYMEN, OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.

I've read about a tool that heats the pipe that way to the correct temp to remove a pipe, but it also said it was for PVC. I've used my heat gun on low just to soften, but then I use the chisel after I make relief cuts. I was always afraid to over heat. Maybe worth practicing on some old pipes outside with a mask.

construct30 said:

I would try it too, but smellslike$tome evidently wouldn't and I've been shot down for suggesting it before as not cost effective. What do I know? If I said to do it because that's what most people would do then I would have smellslike$tome saying I was wrong. When will some of you learn there is more than one right way to do some things and you should do what works best for you. I really think most high dollar pros would not do it, but that's just my opinion. I really think it is stupid for me to have to put IMO at the beginning of every post.

IMO: The sky was blue today!!!

Click to expand...

Whoa! Where did that come from. I didn't say you were wrong nor do I necessarily think you are wrong. I did say I had never done it that way myself and that if I had the option I would much prefer to cut it all out and rerun it. If that is not an option then by all means do whatever will work.

I do not disrespect your knowledge, experience, or ability. Having read most of your posts I wonder how you are able to survive charging what you are charging but something I learned a long time ago is that if you get 10 plumbers in a room and ask them how to do something you will probably get at least 6 or 7 different answers. It doesn't mean that any of them are wrong it just demonstrates the fact that there are a lot of different, acceptable ways of doing something.

Sorry smelllike$tome I should not have used you as a bad example. wrong place wrong time. You were there. I appologize.

Does heating the pipe only work on saving the fitting and removing the pipe or both ways.

Seeing as ABS can melt with too fast of a saw speed we know that the melting temperature is very low.

In fact they process it at only 400 degrees. The flash ignition temperature is only 730 degrees and it contains Styrene.
I am so glad that you are not recommending doing it but in the course of not recommending it you sure spent a lot of time explaining how to do something that is not recommended.



Here is the MSDS sheet for ABS pipe!
http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/MSDS/ABS_Pipe_Fittings_MSDS.pdf

I've usually never had a problem getting ABS out it is so soft and I don't think the solvent works as well or maybe most of what I've dealt with might have been glue rather than solvent. I only run into ABS in manufactured homes, PVC is more popular.

Thanks all, this appears to be a very active board. I'll be sure to come back with future problems.

Seems I may have touched off a bit of a firestorm - farthest from my intentions.

Peace and happiness to all...