(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Kitchen remodel - venting

  1. #1
    DIY Member chel_in_IL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Northern IL (bbrrrr!!!)
    Posts
    36

    Default Kitchen remodel - venting

    As I near finishing my bathroom remodel, I'm starting to think about the mechanics of my kitchen remodel.

    Here's a Visio of how my kitchen currently is. The former owner added an addition on the house, which is rather small (approx 9x10). He moved the kitchen out into this area. I think he made the addition so "narrow" as it didn't want to relocate the electrical lines coming in to the house. The house is a bi-level, split foyer, so the addition is raised about 5' off the ground and there is a storage room underneath that is accessible from outside the house.

    The water supply pipes currently run along the wall and through the cabinets. I guess the former owner had them running through the storage area, but since I'm in Northern IL, he probably had problems with the pipes freezing. Duh.

    The current vents are on the right side of the kitchen, one coming up from the back of the stove area, and another more toward the corner of the room (there's a sink in the corner cabinet at the top right of the drawing.) The vents join together in a soffit and exit out through one pipe in the roof.



    Here's a picture when I moved in some 3 years ago, so you get an idea of how awful this is.... it's great to have a large living room, but the kitchen is totally separate from the rest of the house...



    Ok, so you've seen my hole-in-the-wall kitchen.

    This is an idea of what I want to do:



    Obviously, I'm looking at removing the bearing wall and putting up a header. I'm not worried about that - just did it in a house my fiance' is remodeling.

    The wall at the bottom of the L-shaped counter top will be a half-wall high enough for a bar-height countertop. I'd like to have this for a breakfast bar and also for entertaining. On the left side of the room is the garage.

    My fiance' suggested using "vent caps" so that I wouldn't have to vent out through the roof. To me that sounds like it would be too simple, and there has to be a drawback... say, that the walls are tight, how would the plumbing vent with the cap in the wall?

    Ideas/suggestions appreciated.

    Michelle in Machesney Park, IL

  2. #2
    DIY Senior Member Livin4Real's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    192

    Default

    Your fiance is most likely referring to AAV's (Air admittance valves) a little cap that draws air into the drain when water is flowing down it but closes back when nothing's running. Opinions vary greatly on them here.
    Helpful Guides

  3. #3
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Livin4Real View Post
    Your fiance is most likely referring to AAV's (Air admittance valves) a little cap that draws air into the drain when water is flowing down it but closes back when nothing's running. Opinions vary greatly on them here.
    An air admittance valve would not be legal in this application as it must be both accessible and must be located no less than 6" above the flood level rim of the fixture it is serving.

    What they need to do in this case is install an island fixture vent.

  4. #4
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Let me clarify. This is according to the IPC. If you are governed by the UPC it may be legal but I doubt it. We do not operate under the UPC in my area and so I am unfamiliar with it's requirements.

  5. #5
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Another option might be to not extend the half wall all the way to the intersecting wall but to make it a full wall at the point at which they could meet the distance requirements for a waste line to a vent connection. In this scenario they would not need an island fixture vent but simply an individual vent raised up through the full section of the wall with a branch running through the half wall to the sink. However, I do not know what is above this floor or how difficult it would be to tie into another vent somewhere and so it may not be worth it in which case they should stick to the island fixture vent.

  6. #6
    DIY Member chel_in_IL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Northern IL (bbrrrr!!!)
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Thanks for your response. I looked up "island fixture vent" to get a better understanding. Looks like that is the way to go.

    I prefer not have a full wall as I would like to keep the open feel of the room.

    The basement under this area is unfinished, so I pretty much have free reign as to running water/gas/waste, etc.

    Michelle in Machesney Park, IL

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NorthWest PA
    Posts
    590

    Default

    AAv's are legal under kitchen sinks and in island sinks in some areas. Smellslike$tome is partly wrong, the rule about it being 6" above the flood rim is on stack vents and branch vents, not when they are used on one sink. In one sink they are to be placed as high as possible, but because they are mechanical and prone to failure they must have access. The 2006 IPC code does allow for them. I'm not a big fan of them.

  8. #8
    DIY Member chel_in_IL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Northern IL (bbrrrr!!!)
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Ok... you said "on one sink." In my plan, I will have a dishwasher and a sink side by side, which will be in the area of the cabinetry where there is no wall to run a vent out of. Would an AAV be ok in that situation, or is it asking for trouble?

    I'm not set in my kitchen design - it's still in the brainstorming stages, so I'm willing to change the design if the mechanics drive me to do so.

    I could even do a corner sink, which is what I have now.

  9. #9
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by construct30 View Post
    AAv's are legal under kitchen sinks and in island sinks in some areas. Smellslike$tome is partly wrong, the rule about it being 6" above the flood rim is on stack vents and branch vents, not when they are used on one sink. In one sink they are to be placed as high as possible, but because they are mechanical and prone to failure they must have access. The 2006 IPC code does allow for them. I'm not a big fan of them.
    You are correct. The requirement seems only to be 4" above the horizontal branch drain now. I am guilty of confusing different editions of the IPC. However, having acknowledged that, it still violates common sense and therefore should not be done, in my opinion. The first time there is ever a backup in the system which results in waste water coming in contact with the aav, (yes I realize an aav is a type of check valve and would be closed under back up conditions) it will never work properly again.

    I once answered a call at an older house for a main drain blockage. While searching for a clean out I entered an unfinished basement. All throughout the drainage system located in various places were aav's. I am certain that every one of them had been fouled (though I didn't take them apart to check them) and was therefore inoperable. The tenant reported frequent back ups. Additionally there did not appear to be a main plumbing vent penetrating the exterior of the house anywhere (another violation).

    So, even if the code allows it as it seems to, it is still a bad idea. The island fixture vent is a much better solution that will not give you any trouble in the future.

  10. #10
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Also, I have no specific knowledge that this would happen nor have I ever heard of it happening but I would always wonder about the possibility of vapors from household cleaners which might be located under the sink causing damage to an aav. It doesn't seem to take much to make one stick. Go with the IFV.

  11. #11
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NorthWest PA
    Posts
    590

    Default

    A sink and dishwasher are legal under the 2006 IPC. smellslike$tome is correct about problems with AAV's. Are they legal under IPC, Yes. I don't like them and would use one in a remodel only as a last resort. That is just my opinion and many others from the sounds of it. Plan on changing one every year or two, I've seen soap coming out of them and they stop working and you don't know until you smell the drain or have other problems. They need an alarm on them to tell you when they stop working. If you have a way of not using one then take it. The problem with a dish washer is the loop is higher than the AAV, I don't like that at all.

  12. #12

    Default

    Although I detest the idea of comparing "real" plumbing to trailer house plumbing, there are uncountable thousands of AAVs in trailers now. If they just didn't work, people would be moving out of them.

    The BOCA code, to the best of my knowledge, allowed them.

    There is no question that a vent through the roof is a much safer and better idea. But I would not be opposed to using an AAV. The idea is to keep the trap from siphoning. They work.

    In most cases, they can simply be screwed off and replaced if necessary.

    The worst problem with island venting is that I usually see it improperly installed. I was at a house on Friday with an island kitchen sink and the installer had simply looped the pipe around inside the cabinet - which means it was completely worthless and a waste of pipe and fittings. Island venting must be correctly installed to function.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •