Best option for spa wiring

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Alectrician

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Your making such an ass out of yourself its not funny...


I thought you were not going to argue with me? :)


Maybe you can tell me about the 6' limitation on sealtite or if you ever put MC into emt,

Petey will keep going until he finally says "I am done with you"....and then he'll be back.
 

Alectrician

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If you want to give some advice that isn't up to code, give it in private. If you do post it, make sure you indicate the right way, or that this is not the approved way to perform that task.


Did you even READ my post? Maybe you shoud before you join the dog pile.


Name calling is appropriate between me and Petey. We go way back and we can take care of ourselves.

Name calling between me and Chris is still in the developmental stage.
 

BrianJohn

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Sleeving romex and MC is done all the time, as stated the conductors are the same.

Some conductors in MC and romex are marked


From my post at another site...where 90% of the posters state they perform this type of installation.

This is done all the time and I see no problems with this, as for the marking..Ever look at #6 awg-750 kcmil after it is pulled into a piece of equipment, often the markings are GONE, due to soap, rubbing the conduit, newer lousy marking methods.

Does these conductors need to be replaced.

Oh and what inspector is looking in the conduit to see the markings.
and I'm told inspectors pass this type of installation all the time.
This is a non issue,IMO.

Not telling anyone to break code if that is their interpation just stating the fact.
 
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Speedy Petey

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Got a code reference for that one? You can run as much sealtite as you want because OBVIOUSLY you would put a GC in it....unless you were and idiot.
Don't I always?

IV. Spas and Hot Tubs

680.42 Outdoor Installations


A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

(A) Flexible Connections Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).

(1) Flexible Conduit Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).








Who elected you to be the head Dbag?
I'm self appointed. Got a problem with that Skippy? :D
 

restorick

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You know, it's very interesting to hear all of the interpretations of the code, or at least the personal liberties taken with the code.

I'm not looking to violate anything, and I certainly do not want an unsafe condition where I'm worried every time my wife or I hop in the tub. But the commentary here makes me laugh a little, especially when I hear certified electricians (I'm hoping you are, at least) argue about the meaning of what seems to be a very straightforward code. Gotta say, it doesn't instill a great deal of confidence in me to hire a pro, especially if you have more than one way to interpret the code.

Here's my situation - I need a 50A feeder. My main panel is about 60' away from where the cable will exit the house. The spa will sit in my backyard, which is 9' lower than my front yard. So I have an option to exit the house through the deck ledger board 9' above the spa and run cable along the deck rim joist and down the post, or I can exit the house low and deal with modifying the siding.

In either case, I have about a 18' run from the house to the disconnect.

I have a disconnect and will use it. I am trying to avoid having to use NM in the house, make a connection into a JB and switch over to conduit into the disconnect, and then use liquidtight flex to the spa.

What are my options?

Thanks again,
Rick
 

Alectrician

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If your panel is outside, sleeve the 6/3 out of the panel, run it under the house,sleeve it under the deck into the disco (line of sight to spa). Run PVC underground to the spa, adapt to sealtite to terminate in the spa control J box. Pull #6 thhn from disco to spa....I have been doing elec work most of my adult life and contracting for most of my career and that's how I do it. It is a 100% safe installation.

Again, the technical issue would be placing the romex in the conduit outside. To me, it's a non issue.

According to some you have to jb where you enter and exit the structure. Maybe some would consider under the house "outside" I don't know. Maybe some would consider under the deck part of the structure...I don't know.


And Pete....go bother Brian for a while. I'm going out of town for the day....maybe two.
 

restorick

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If your panel is outside, sleeve the 6/3 out of the panel, run it under the house,sleeve it under the deck into the disco (line of sight to spa). Run PVC underground to the spa, adapt to sealtite to terminate in the spa control J box. Pull #6 thhn from disco to spa....I have been doing elec work most of my adult life and contracting for most of my career and that's how I do it. It is a 100% safe installation.

Thanks for the feedback. My panel is indoors, in my basement. Joists are exposed and running romex can be easily done through the basement over to where I have to exit the house.

I'll see if I can get a couple of pics together or sketch something up. Might make things easier.

Thanks again,
Rick
 

Speedy Petey

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I have been doing elec work most of my adult life and contracting for most of my career and that's how I do it. It is a 100% safe installation.
That's funny. You know how us real electricians determine what is safe? Does it meet code, that's how. The code is a minimum standard. If you can't even meet that minimum, or are too ignorant to care about it, I feel sorry for you.
I couldn't care less how long you have been doing electrical work. Because for that whole time MUCH of what you have been doing has been wrong.
With the exception of the safety of your customers, I really don't give a crap how you do your work or run your "business".

What bothers the rest of us here is that you CONSTANTLY give advice to non-trades folks that IS wrong or not code legal.
 

480sparky

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It is a 100% safe installation.

Again, the technical issue would be placing the romex in the conduit outside. To me, it's a non issue.

In essence, are you advocating (even promoting) a known and intentional Code violation? How can you say that this is a 100% safe installation? Simply due to sheer luck that no one has been hurt by it? Has your installation method been tested by UL, ETL, or any other testing lab in regards to it's 'safety'?

Have you gone back to check on the condition of each and every one of these installations to even find out the current condition of them? If not, how do you know they are still 'safe'? Maybe your first installation like this has burned the house down, or the ground wire has failed, killing the whole family, and you just don't know about it because you did it so long ago.
 

BrianJohn

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certified electricians (I'm hoping you are, at least)

Nope not one of us is certified, licensed maybe. I am licensed but can not speak for the others, well Speedy and 480 I believe are....(I sort of know them in a round about web way). They are sharper on NEC issues than I am as I am no code expert. I pick up the book and review as necessary.
 
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restorick

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Nope not one of us is certified, licensed maybe. I am licensed but can not speak for the others, well Speedy and 480 I believe are....(I sort of know them in a round about web way). They are sharper on NEC issues than I am as I am no code expert. I pick up the book and review as necessary.

OK then. Perhaps a better term is "Certifiable"? :D

I try to do the same as you do with the code book. I've found in my area (SE Wisconsin) that different municipalities use different flavors of the book, and some inspectors seem to get "creative" with the code as well. I'm just trying to determine the most practical - and compliant - method to wire my spa.

Example - in my town, I can pull any permits I like and do any of the work I choose to do. Obviously, they encourage hiring pros to do the work, but they also realize that a lot of us are very competent and in my case, very conscientious about doing the work properly and to code. It is my house, and I certainly don't want to do anything to hurt my family, damage the house physically, or diminish the resale value.

The inspector I worked with when I pulled permits to install a subpanel and an overhead furnace in my garage were great. They offered practical examples of what will work and what doesn't, and what they look for when they come in to do the rough and the finish inspection. At the end of the day, I'll stop in and chat with them to get their advice - especially when I need to satisfy them in order to pass inspection.

I do appreciate the feedback, regardless of what it is. There is nothing better than having many years of experience to borrow from.

Regards,
Rick
 

Chris75

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You know, it's very interesting to hear all of the interpretations of the code, or at least the personal liberties taken with the code.

I'm not looking to violate anything, and I certainly do not want an unsafe condition where I'm worried every time my wife or I hop in the tub. But the commentary here makes me laugh a little, especially when I hear certified electricians (I'm hoping you are, at least) argue about the meaning of what seems to be a very straightforward code. Gotta say, it doesn't instill a great deal of confidence in me to hire a pro, especially if you have more than one way to interpret the code.

Here's my situation - I need a 50A feeder. My main panel is about 60' away from where the cable will exit the house. The spa will sit in my backyard, which is 9' lower than my front yard. So I have an option to exit the house through the deck ledger board 9' above the spa and run cable along the deck rim joist and down the post, or I can exit the house low and deal with modifying the siding.

In either case, I have about a 18' run from the house to the disconnect.

I have a disconnect and will use it. I am trying to avoid having to use NM in the house, make a connection into a JB and switch over to conduit into the disconnect, and then use liquidtight flex to the spa.

What are my options?

Thanks again,
Rick


Alectrician's comments are not interpretations, they are straight forward code violations... ignore his comments...
 

Bob NH

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Unless you have already bought the NM, you might consider running PVC conduit all the way with #8 copper to provide the 50 Amps. I described the details on wire size in my earlier post.

I recently installed 1" PVC through joists on 16" centers, and have done 3/4" that you would need on several occasions. It's important to take care with layout of the drilling and plan the joints. I was able to pull 2 #6, 1 #8, and a #10 through four 90 degree els in about 80 ft of run without any help.
 

Alectrician

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How can you say that this is a 100% safe installation?


All you need is half a brain to figure that one out. Explain how sleeving romex can kill someone and I will consider your opinion. Hell people LEGALLY run the crap exposed all over the country and that is somehow better? Explain that.




Simply due to sheer luck that no one has been hurt by it? Has your installation method been tested by UL, ETL, or any other testing lab in regards to it's 'safety'?

Again, tell us how it is a safety issue. You CAN'T. It's not rocket science and I don't need a lab to tell me it's safe.



Maybe your first installation like this has burned the house down, or the ground wire has failed, killing the whole family, and you just don't know about it because you did it so long ago

Dude that is stupid. Maybe your legal installation has killed a whole family. Does that put you in the clear? You clowns really know how to stretch.

NOBODY will step up and say why THEY think it is unsafe. You are only able to point to a book and say "Look here. It started to be unsafe in 2005 when all ouside conduit was reclassified as a wet location". Weak.
 

Bob NH

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This is getting as exciting as when I described having cut a live 120 Volt conductor with 15" Fiskars pruning loppers that have fiberglass and nylon handles.:)
 

Alectrician

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What bothers the rest of us here is that you CONSTANTLY give advice to non-trades folks that IS wrong or not code legal.

You might want to get used to it. I'll have to admit that I get a bit of pleasure out of bothering some people.



BTW, 356.10 (5) says Type LFNC-B longer than 6' if strapped.
 

BrianJohn

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Speaking strictly for me, this is not a safety issue and if the conductors were marked would be the exact SAME. As I stated earlier I do not do this type of work but have been told that some Romex and UF and MC is marked.

Prior to these post I may have done sleeving of Romex if the case arose. But I pride myself on doing code compliant work and would not do this type of install knowing this is a violation.

In my opinion not knowing better and violating the code is not right but understandable (not everyone knows everything in the NEC*), knowing it is a violation and continuing to do installations that are non code compliant installations is wrong.


* I do feel it prudent to have a complete knowledge regarding the type of work one does, when I installed my pool I read and re-read the NEC regarding pools to verify my installation was compliant (I threw the pool contractors electricians off the job). If you do a gas station read....You get the picture a GOOD electrician strives to do good work this means his work needs to meet the code rules.
 

Speedy Petey

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BTW, 356.10 (5) says Type LFNC-B longer than 6' if strapped.
No kidding. 680.42(A)(1) overrides that.

What the code giveth in one place it taketh away in another.
Sorry, you don't get to choose which one you want. :p

Another big issue with this whole stripping NM in conduit is the insulated ground factor for a spa or pool. Once the circuit leaves the structure the ground MUST be insulated.
If the disconnect is mounted ON the house I also bring the NM cable right into the back. Now we are outside the structure. From this point ALL conduit and INSULATED conductors, even the ground.
If the disconnect is several to many feet off the house I change over to conduit and wire just inside the house. That or I go all the way to the panel with conduit if it is not that far.
 
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