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Thread: Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member Marlin336's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Cass;110098]
    I never cut, drill or screw unless I look at and inspect or feel the area first, if possible.
    /QUOTE]
    That's one of the best points so far in this thread. I've saved myself many times from hitting pipes and wires because I took the time to look.

  2. #32
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default the next guy

    Very, very few trades worry about the next guy. The carpenter does not worry about where the plumber is going to drill a hole when he shoots a nail, although they seem to be able to figure it out so the nail is at least somewhere that the hole has to go. The electrician does not worry when he runs his wire through the center of the wall. The heating guy cuts the plumber's vent lines when they are in the way, and you expect the plumber to spend extra time because THEY might have a problem with HIS installation? If the floor installer is going to have a problem then have the carpenter install 2x4's between the joists during the framing so the plumber can strap his pipes to them.

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    The original poster should have checked to make sure nothing was under there, I agree.

    Plumbing codes, IPC, UPC, IRC all say that what was done with the plumbing was wrong. I posted all the sections for the codes earlier. If you call yourself a plumber and don't have a code book you're a "hack", to use the poster's term, it is the most important tool in your van, truck or office.

    I've had, in other threads, you licensed plumbers from other states pretty much figure people in PA are hicks because we don't have licensing, but our public utilities have made us do work to code since my dad was a union electrictian in the 60's. We have state wide inspections that use the 2003 and now the 2006 IRC, we could never get away with a mess like that.

    I don't understand why the Pro Plumbers on this site can cut a DIYer down because they don't know some of the hard concepts about venting, but you try to defend a "hack" job like this one that is so simple to understand. I am really suprised to find that here.

    As far as the original poster, get it fixed, slide a piece of 1/16" or thicker steel plate above the pipe shim the straps just an 1/8" so the copper is not touching the steel and amazingly it fixes future problems and brings that mess back up to code.

  4. #34
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    So the plumber's long and gone, pipes holding water and working error-free mind you and all of sudden a new floor makes it the plumber's problem?


    No.
    Here, YES.
    I don't know about UPC, IPC, IBC, NPC, ABC or XYZ, BUT -
    In my state -
    Any time a pipe passes through a joist, stud, plate, header, or any other form of framing within 3" of the nailing surface, the plumber is responsible for installing nail plates (guards). Inspectors fail plumbers on this all the time, very common thing to forget.
    Here, we're supposed to keep plastic/copper pipe 3" away from exterior sheathing for the obvious reason...how many times have you bumped your head into nail stubs in a basement subfloor or attic sheathing while working?
    This is obviously a jurisdictional thing here, but personally I wouldn't do it even if I were allowed unless I had no choice, even then I'd guard it.


    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    I think the same way of carpenters when I run my brand new 2-9/16" milwaukee drill bit through the bottom plate and catch not one, not two, but sometimes 3 nails that spiralled out of control when they was stabbing the sides of stud instead of nailing bottom up when they should of.
    I use hole saws, less mess, they eat nails for breakfast, sure they take a little longer, but so does sharpening self feeds

    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    Should I mention that *#&$ing center stud that they always put up on a shower wall where the valve goes, right where it has to be removed?
    The 3 lb mini sledge removes studs nicely, then you secure your valve with strapping and let the Einstein figure out how to frame around it, guaranteed not to happen after the first couple of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    Don't even get me started on floor guys who don't raise the closet flanges to the finished floor surface as required by industry standard. What? Who me? Yeah YOU.
    Cut 1/2" strapping into 2" segments, break in half, put under the flange as spacers and screw flange into subfloor.
    Glue from under and work away happily ever after.


    I'm 100% with you on my thoughts on new residential construction, it's all about low bids, passing responsibility, and getting it done so fast you wonder if everything was done right.
    Not to mention, English as a second language.
    Whatever it takes for developers to make good money.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  5. #35
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber View Post
    installing nail plates (guards).
    Here as well, mandatory on the bottom plates, top plates, vents, water lines.



    Here, we're supposed to keep plastic/copper pipe 3" away from exterior sheathing for the obvious reason...how many times have you bumped your head into nail stubs in a basement subfloor or attic sheathing while working?
    This is obviously a jurisdictional thing here, but personally I wouldn't do it even if I were allowed unless I had no choice, even then I'd guard it.


    It's been years since I've done new construction but every house we worked in had linoleum floors, tile wasn't as popular as it is today like it was back then......linoleum was king. <<< No need for the applications today. We always nailed 2X4's up against the joists vertical and ran them paralell with the joist making sure we nailed on the side where we followed the overlap board at the beam where joists come together. On kitchen sink water lines where there was a cantilever we'd bring up through the floor first, 90 over and let them rest on blocking, then turn it up through the bottom of the cabinet.

    I however can recall at least once in the past few years where I ran a water line right up against the floor, had to fight a large round ductwork and going below wasn't an option. I used armaflex to protect the copper line from galvanic reaction to the ductwork.....no other options.

    I use hole saws, less mess, they eat nails for breakfast, sure they take a little longer, but so does sharpening self feeds

    I only use 1 hole saw; 4-3/4" for closet flanges, the same one for holes in shower walls whether concrete board for showers or fiberglass. I use a large expensive carbide in a cordless drill to sharpen my self feeds rather quickly.


    The 3 lb mini sledge removes studs nicely, then you secure your valve with strapping and let the Einstein figure out how to frame around it, guaranteed not to happen after the first couple of times.

    ^^^^
    Thats an easy fix but you're forgetting the cross brace for the shower lug ell for the shower head. Yes....it's nice to have one precut board for the equation but it always requires two to make a uniform install and the drywallers appreciate the consideration of something within the 16" oc realm. Otherwise I'm cutting a board 26" and taking it to the edge nailing flange of the shower. <<< That would get removed and reworked due to that application.





    Cut 1/2" strapping into 2" segments, break in half, put under the flange as spacers and screw flange into subfloor.
    Glue from under and work away happily ever after.

    ^^^^
    I'm talking from a rework point of view. We used to use 1/2" copper cut to size to raise for the tile guys when it was spec'd for it. Wood seemingly wood disappear before the tile guys would arrive due to someone hitting them.

    The overlay of the floors is where the problems start, some of them think straining that piping and pulling up works; it doesn't. The correct method.....and most times there will be no access through the ceiling below, cut out and rework, install new wood if rotten/can't get right height and drill through new surface completely,reset.



    I'm 100% with you on my thoughts on new residential construction, it's all about low bids, passing responsibility, and getting it done so fast you wonder if everything was done right.
    Not to mention, English as a second language.
    Whatever it takes for developers to make good money.[/quote]

    I'm so glad I'm out of new construction. Some of these larger homes required everything tucked in the joists, working off the tolerances of PVC pipe and fittings and numerous, NUMEROUS times we had to cut the hubs or street ends of PVC pipe fittings to make tight turns or otherwise to get from point A to point B without any structural modifications. They just simply wouldn't allow it. Then fish water lines around that equation in the center only of the joists; when I was doing new construction we could do the bottom of the joists, notching them all the way from one end of the house to the other.

    Think the opposite of bottom and thirty years ago and plumbers would install water lines, mostly galvanized in the top of the joists and notch them to whereever they needed to go. Of course, driving a nail through galvanized piping would definitely make you special....special to accomplish that feat.

    In today's age of materials...just pulling product against a sharp edge can produce failure points. That's what scares me about sharkbites or anything relying on an 0-ring to protect from leaking. I've seen copper knurled/ovalled/imperfect from transport.....CPVC with scratches and grooves, gouges from damage I assume from plant to structure.


    This thread gives me interest to keep camera close and near for the next carpenter screwup I see in my line of work. Be prepared. Name:  h-nasty.gif
Views: 287
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    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  6. #36
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    This thread gives me interest to keep camera close and near for the next carpenter screwup I see in my line of work. Be prepared. Name:  h-nasty.gif
Views: 287
Size:  505 Bytes
    I'll start. See if you can beat this!

    Hack plumber + hack carpenter = oh, so that's why the floor sags!
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    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
    Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.

  7. #37

    Default PA license

    Construct30 When you say we dont have a license in PA. What are you refering too? Everwhere I go to pull a permit they want my masters Lic, where took test etc..

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie
    Hack plumber + hack carpenter = oh, so that's why the floor sags!
    Mon Dieu! That was no plumber . . .

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Larry4 there is no state license. Several counties and towns have license, but where I live none. You can go to the pa plumbers association web site to see the newest bill they are trying to pass to require a state license. If this bill passes it will be like the uniform construction code act, it will be the only required license, no county or small town will be allowed to require their own license. I know Allegheny county for one is fighting that part they want to keep their local requirement. It didn't fly when it came to the uniform construction code act and I don't think it will fly for this either. It is some thing big companies and even the union wants so they can work any where in the state without the locals harrassing them. Where are you from Larry. It doesn't say under your name, go to the private options and put it in. I'm north of pittsburgh.

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    frenchie, that place would take it's own site to discuss, watch how you step.

  11. #41
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Talking

    Im sorry I have to post Did my 4 yrs,passed in 1990 100%.Code differ.
    Start when I was young 30 yrs old,so now I cant do it like I did.
    But I still have the Knowlage.For little while anyway.

  12. #42

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    construct30 Im in Lehigh Valley. I have been in HVAC 15 yrs, Plumbing 8 yrs. Starting to install and service plumbing just seemed to be the natural advance. Started servicing small jobs and just kept going. Its a nice challange with all the rules and regs. Evertime I apply for a permit they want my license. I show them the 10 I have from other townships, insurance, and my yrs exp. There dont seem to be a standard here like you said. So in PA what makes you a master, a journeyman, a plumber??? Can they turn you down?

    Thanks ,

    Larry

  13. #43
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herk View Post
    Mon Dieu! That was no plumber . . .
    ...and no carpenter, if you look at it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by construct30 View Post
    frenchie, that place would take it's own site to discuss, watch how you step.
    No worries, it was two years ago. And (thank god) it wasn't my job - I was working nearby, for the same clients, they asked me to go look at it after they got word that the price needed adjusting.

    The beam & posts got completely replaced, and half the floor completely rebuilt. Let me dig a little, I've got some progress pics, somewhere...
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
    Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.

  14. #44
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Here we go... I can't seem to find half of them, but this ought to give you an idea:


    edit: okay, I messed up, and I can't seem to edit the pics part of this post... but the order is wrong.


    The bottom pic should be the first one - the new joists had just been put in, with the new beam, but the old joists aren't out, yet.

    If anyone remembers the thread where I posted pictures of filtch plate beams? That would be the same beam, installed, in these pics.

    I can't find the earlier pics, which shows all the staging they had to put in, in order to replace the beam. It was similar to what you see on the second floor, in the top pic - but twice over, once on each side of the beam.

    Next, the top pic, where they'd started filling in the new section. The first set of staging has been replaced with staging under the beam, which is starting to come out, being replaced with the built-up posts that went into the loadbearing wall.

    Then the middle pic.

    Sorry, don't have pics of anything later.
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by frenchie; 12-03-2007 at 08:00 PM.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
    Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.

  15. #45
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    That looks a lot better!

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