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Thread: Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

  1. #16
    Plumbing Company Owner smellslike$tome's Avatar
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    Also I was going to say based on the couplings, that it looks to me as though this was not the first time the pipe was punctured. A short measurement would account for 1 coupling and a puncture would account for 2 unless he was short twice in which case we are probably talking about one of those special drunk plumbers.

  2. #17
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Okay...

    - somebody needs to answer the 305.8 aspect. If the plumber broke code... case closed.

    - punching through the back of plywood with your fastener, actually does increase it's holding power somewhat. It's a marginal increase, but it's there. Don't believe me? Find a structural engineer who works with wood a lot, and ask him/her.

    - are you guys seriously trying to tell me that you've never seen a nail or screw protruding through a subfloor before?

    - For wonderboard screws, 1-5/8 is the most common size, by a HUGE margin. I've seen people post threads, on DIY forums, asking if other sizes even exists. I can't get 1-1/4 at my local hardware stores, or the big box stores (which is fine, since I prefer lumberyards, anyways).

    - This was totally forseeable. If my plumber was running lines that close to the subfloor, I'd have him change it. I honestly can't imagine him doing it, though; he's good about remembering the next guy.
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  3. #18
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Default sub floor

    I would never run piping that close to the sub floor.But anybody can do it all.

  4. #19
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Default sniff sniff, whimper

    So the plumber's long and gone, pipes holding water and working error-free mind you and all of sudden a new floor makes it the plumber's problem?


    No.

    For the same reason why a carpenter shoots a nail on a trim board and hits a pipe in the wall, he's paying for the damage.


    For the same reason when a drywaller screws a screw through the wall and hits a drain or water line, depending on how lucky he was that day , he's paying for the damage.


    I personally have never ran water lines that close to a floor but I understand how important the R-factor is in overhangs.


    I also understand that this thread is just a minor jab at the plumber since you're probably footing the tab for using long screws. Bitch and moan all you want.......


    but there wasn't a plumbing problem until you decided to lay a floor.

    That sits heavily in your customer's mind and you can call the plumber anything you want, it's on your dime.

    I think the same way of carpenters when I run my brand new 2-9/16" milwaukee drill bit through the bottom plate and catch not one, not two, but sometimes 3 nails that spiralled out of control when they was stabbing the sides of stud instead of nailing bottom up when they should of.

    I'll also think of them when they laid the joists out around the toilet where I have to use an offset flange, giving the customer a world of joy joy of misery for a lifetime in the home with no way around it short of using headers and boxing out, structurally affecting the floor integrity.

    Should I mention that *#&$ing center stud that they always put up on a shower wall where the valve goes, right where it has to be removed?

    How bout scabbing drywall catches or doubling up studs in a corner when a vent rolls around them to come out and catch the main stack.

    How bout when you all H-clip the roof sheathing right where my main stack is going out, causing me to double roll 45's which COSTS ME MONEY. lol


    Don't even get me started on floor guys who don't raise the closet flanges to the finished floor surface as required by industry standard. What? Who me? Yeah YOU.

    Come to raise the roost with a plumber expect one to tell the tales of the nonsense bull**** I dealt with all those years I did new construction.


    And they wondered why they had sand in thier air compressors when they came back from lunch.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    I didn't say they shouldn't insulate properly. There is foamboard that can be nailded below the joist, they could put furring on the joists to get the proper insulation. All the International plumbing code asks for is 1 1/2" the upc only 1". Any one who cares to do it right, buy some stand off hangers, I hardly ever use those two hole straps any more. Nothing can be done about the "professional" that did that job. DIYers read this stuff and think it is OK if guys like Rugged or Terry say it's OK. I would love to hear what Grumpy has to say. We have all had ocassion to moan about "stuff that happens", when someone does some thing wrong. He chose to do that here, I'll allow him that. I won't nail his plumber to a cross, heck I might be hanging next to him tomorrow. I will allow this home owner to moan, provided the plumber got paid... I wonder... Did he loose his...
    Last edited by construct30; 11-30-2007 at 08:50 PM.

  6. #21
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    "The strength of a nail or screw is diminished greatly when it fully penetrates through the structure it's holding.

    2/3rds with no break through is the carpenters golden rule."

    That doesn't apply when screwing into plywood or when using screws with minimal engagement.

    Most plywood subfloor is 5/8", sometimes 1/2 and sometimes 3/4. "Drywall screws" have a long tapered point and the end doesn't hold much. To get maximum strength the point must go through until the full diameter section of the screw goes through the plywood.

    One solution to the installation would be to put a piece of 3/4" thick strapping on the underside of the plywood at the appropriate support intervals and strap the pipes to that.

  7. #22
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    WHen installing a roof, they tell you the nails MUST penetrate. Don't need much, but sometimes you don't have much choice.
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  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Marlin336's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslike$tome View Post
    Better yet it should have been a pex installation especially in these circumstances. Pex is certainly no more screw resistant than copper but if it should freeze it will not rupture which is a claim that copper can not make. I am assuming of course that the local code would permit pex installations.
    You're forgetting how new pex is and how it's just in the last few years been made legal. I'm sure their are still some places where it isn't legal. It was just a couple months ago here they started allowing it's use in commercial applications, it's been legal in residential for a few years.

  9. #24
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Well the plumber or who ever, (do you even know who did the plumbing) put the pipe high to avoid freezing. Its just the way it is.

    If they had left it a few inches down and it froze and burst it would be a different complaint.

    Oh boy, I just looked out and the barn door is open and the horse is gone, I need to go and find out who left the door open.

    Later....

  10. #25
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    "The strength of a nail or screw is diminished greatly when it fully penetrates through the structure it's holding.

    2/3rds with no break through is the carpenters golden rule."



    That's great. Not only are the woodworkers driving screws into perfectly good copper piping, now they are lying to me about how far screws go into the wood!!!

    Aarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    They can never be trusted, again.


    Thanks Cass for changing your word of the week; I was overknowledged on the last one

    I'd rather have that piping the way it is and never freeze than to worry about the long screw bandit making a homemade sprinkler system in the basement.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    [I]

    I'd rather have that piping the way it is and never freeze than to worry about the long screw bandit making a homemade sprinkler system in the basement.

    You can accomplish both taskes, keeping pipe from freezing and protecting the pipe. I have had situations like that and never had a problem. I didn't rely on someone else to insulate the bay correctly I did it myself. Most houses with a cantiliever have at least a 2" x 10" for joist. Rugged where did you get that house had 2" x 8" for joist, they looked bigger than that to me?

    According to code if that pipe is not 1 1/2" from the edge of the framing member, it has to be protected using 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel. That is if the pipe is running perpendicular or parallel to the member. The short of it is if you run a pipe like that it does NOT meet code and should fail inspection. If you want to strap a pipe directly to the floor then protect it with metal. There is always a way to do it correctly. Next you will be telling me there is a reason not to put a trap on a tub drain, come on you are a professional do the job right or don't do it. The code usually has all the answers if you care to look, use steel if you like, I like to use stand off straps and get the insulation to work, but if that were not possible I would be buying some steel plate.

    Frenchie asked you to answer the code aspect, can you or not? If I'm wrong prove it.
    Last edited by construct30; 12-01-2007 at 07:28 AM.

  12. #27

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    I don't see any romex, hvac or anything else in that cavity.

    Per code, Romex would have to be 1 1/4 in to allow for screws.


    Seems like plumbing would have similar requirements. I guess the water can't kill you though.

  13. #28
    In the Trades AZ Contractor's Avatar
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    Holy crap! You guys are funny.

    If a carpenter is installing baseboard and one of his nails (less than 1 1/2" off the floor hits a copper pipe who pays?

    I can't stand it when trades come out and can't use a little bit of foreshadowing while doing there install to prevent future problems.

    If you did that plumbing install for me, I'd make you tear it and start over before the inspector makes you tear it out and start over. If you didn't want to you would have to use steel to protect it from situations like the one that just happened. If you didn't want to use steel, I'd back-charge you and have someone else do it.

    Electricians running there wires just under a slab or a plumber running copper at the edge of a framing member lack foreshadowing.

    Think ahead gentlemen. Its not that difficult.

  14. #29
    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    Now whos red in the face.

  15. #30
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Lets think about this...I believe this problem was due to the poster not doing what he should have done prior to beginning any work.

    The photo in the first post shows the water line hugging and strapped to the bottom of the floor.

    It also shows a T that must be in a heated area because it is below the Joice.

    I never cut, drill or screw unless I look at and inspect or feel the area first, if possible.

    I would have looked underneath for any wires, ducts, or plumbing and If I had seen the T going up into insulation, knowing it was feeding the area I was going to be working on, I would have pulled it down and looked first.

    Did you do this...

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