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Thread: Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

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    DIY Junior Member coyotehills's Avatar
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    Default Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

    I found this installation the hard way while installing Hardie Board on the 1st floor matser bath. This is a cantilever section below double vanity from the master bath with all four supply lines attached directly to the underside of the subfloor. I got lucky and missed the pipe twice but hit it the third time. BTW 3 years ago I had to replumb the valve and supply line for ice maker from hot to cold in the house across the street.
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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Might be licensed, but not professional. Not very pretty. Unfortunately a license does not always mean a guy knows how to do something right. In Pa we do not have a license, yet, but next door they do and I've seem a lot of no code compliant crap done by licensed individuals that also passed inspection, in the plumbing and electrical fields. Was that work inspected too?

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    DIY Junior Member tinner666's Avatar
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    The things that turn up!
    Frank Albert

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    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Default So it's the plumber's fault

    That you're using oversized screws to anchor flooring.


    Explain the how so to this; that copper piping was operating error-free until you decided NOT to measure your screws before working.

    Plumbers will install piping in that fashion when the joist space is busy ie heat run, around romex runs or gas lines, beam.

    Learn how to use properly sized screws next time and you won't have a reason to join a forum and complain about your stupid mistake.

    Those pipes didn't leak until you screwed a screw in them, just for the record.Name:  imslow.gif
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    Read what the end of this sentence means.

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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Rugged, I'm sorry, you might think I'm a hack, but any inspector I've ever dealt with would fail that plumbing. If you run a pipe too close to the edge of a framing member then a metal pipe protector is in order. Strapping a pipe to the under side of the plywood is a terrible idea. If a joist space is that busy, then you better find a different place to run. Besides look at the terrible globs of solder, ugly. The guy has a legitimate complaint. I usually respect the heck out of your comments Rugged, but this time you're off base.

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    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Post Inciteful thread packed with knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by construct30 View Post
    Rugged, I'm sorry, you might think I'm a hack, but any inspector I've ever dealt with would fail that plumbing. If you run a pipe too close to the edge of a framing member then a metal pipe protector is in order. Strapping a pipe to the under side of the plywood is a terrible idea. If a joist space is that busy, then you better find a different place to run. Besides look at the terrible globs of solder, ugly. The guy has a legitimate complaint. I usually respect the heck out of your comments Rugged, but this time you're off base.



    cantilever section below double vanity

    Do you know what that means?

    That means the plumber needs to allow for the most possible/largest R-factor of insulation available in this area since it is exposed to the elements when the plumbing is installed in an area where living space is non-existent.

    That job (new construction) was spec'd on a 2X8 joist space with R-30 16" o.c. Kraft-Faced insulation.

    See the little dabs of insulation hanging to the wood near the floor? That's why.

    Plumber has to protect thier piping from bursting in an area where room temperature is not possible to protect from freezing....a liability back on the plumber,

    a extreme difficulty for the insulator to properly insulate that joist space with the correct insulation to control thermal loss.

    I'm right on target like I was when I typed my first response. I don't feel sorry for the event that unfolded as that plumbing was working just fine before LONG screws were shot into the floor. Don't worry about freezing, worry about long screws plumbah!
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Section 305.8 protection from physical damage! I used to be an insulation contractor, now I'm a plumber, I have to worry about my pipes first now. I used to have to use foam board or furring to get the R value I needed below pipe in such cases. The plumber should have allowed for the 1 5/8 screws usually used on durarock and such underlayments and protected his hidden pipes.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    It's not against plumbing code to have the pipes that high.
    Most of the time, they are not that high, but sometimes to miss other objects, they might be.
    I like to keep them a ways from the bottom of the floor for two reasons.
    Easier to solder and cut pipe.
    Less chance of getting nailed.

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    DIY Junior Member coyotehills's Avatar
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    Default Excuuuse Me

    I guess I should have used shorter screws at let the floor fail! BTW I don't see any romex, hvac or anything else in that cavity. Also I didn't think 2 wrongs made it right!

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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Terry in Pa, we use the 2006 International Plumbing Code, if you have one read 305.8 protection against physical damage section.

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    DIY Senior Member Phil H2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by construct30 View Post
    Terry in Pa, we use the 2006 International Plumbing Code, if you have one read 305.8 protection against physical damage section.
    Construct30
    The codes (both UPC & IPC) are concerned with pipe passing through framing members. Subflooring is not a framing memeber. The orignial picture doesn't show the pipe passing through the joists. What do you do with drains and vents inside walls? Run a steel plate from floor to ceiling? I don't think attaching the pipe to the subfloor is ideal, but I don't think it violates any codes.

    IPC 305.8 Protection against physical damage.
    In concealed locations where piping, other than cast-iron or galvanized steel, is installed through holes or notches in studs, joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be protected by shield plates. Protective shield plates shall be a minimum of 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored, and shall extend a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) above sole plates and below top plates

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    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil H2 View Post
    Construct30
    The codes (both UPC & IPC) are concerned with pipe passing through framing members. Subflooring is not a framing memeber. The orignial picture doesn't show the pipe passing through the joists. What do you do with drains and vents inside walls? Run a steel plate from floor to ceiling? I don't think attaching the pipe to the subfloor is ideal, but I don't think it violates any codes.

    IPC 305.8 Protection against physical damage.
    In concealed locations where piping, other than cast-iron or galvanized steel, is installed through holes or notches in studs, joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be protected by shield plates. Protective shield plates shall be a minimum of 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored, and shall extend a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) above sole plates and below top plates

    And that's why the plumbing inspector passed all those installs in the same fashion on the 2nd roughs. Good find Phil.

    As far as the couplings in that copper pipe; when I did new construction the guy I worked for would force us to keep using up pieces of copper coming off the ends of the pipe. Don't dare cut new sections cut to size off 10 footers or he'd hit the roof. He felt with copper couplings being .11 cents at the time that it was cheaper than pulling off a section of new 1/2" copper, $3.41

    Those days are loooooooong gone and I believe for good.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Phil H2 I wondered how long it would take some one to read the codes and point that out. I deal with two inspectors and I asked them and both said they would fail that. If you want to do it then by all means do it. I can't believe the number of plumbers that are defending such practices. The intent of the code is to protect the pipes in a home whether they are under ground through joist or under the subfloor. I guess I will have to contact ICC and have them add that part, I guess using common sense is not enough.

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    Consultant cwhyu2's Avatar
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    The Intent of the code is to protect the public.

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    DIY Senior Member construct30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwhyu2 View Post
    The Intent of the code is to protect the public.
    Sorry, I will be more specific, this section of the code we have been talking about for the past three pages.

    I guess this comes down to personal preference. I asked my inspectors and we are on the same page, but maybe some inspectors as well as some plumbers don't see it that way.

    I grew up around electricians and reading electrical code books, maybe some of that is clouding my judgement on this. I think I will still refrain from doing it though.

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