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Thread: Large hard stools (spinal cord injury) (parkinson's) current toilet clogs.

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Mystor's Avatar
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    Default Large hard stools (spinal cord injury) (parkinson's) current toilet clogs.

    I have a family member with a spinal cord injury. The result has been large, hard, stools that clog the toilet. Can you recommend a toilet that will remove waste in one flush and not clog? Thanks!

    I'm also adding other reasons for large hard stools, Parkinson's, certain medications, medical problems.
    Maybe less then 1% of the population has these issues, but they are very real issues.
    Terry
    Last edited by Reader Review; 06-13-2010 at 11:05 PM.

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    In the Trades kordts's Avatar
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    Default

    I am sure that whoever handles the bedpan wears gloves, so how about breaking the turds into bite size pieces?

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    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Default Dealt with this with a few customers

    and the only advice is to follow kordts on breaking up the matter before disposing of it. No easy task in those matters unless you change the diet of the injured to soften the stool.


    Doctors can prescribe medications to resolve the problem.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

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    DIY Junior Member Mystor's Avatar
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    Default Update

    Patient gets around and no bedpan is required. Changing diet is not the issue here. Sluggish bowel movements are a fact of life with this type of injury. I was hoping to find a toilet that is powerful enough to do the job.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Large hard stools
    There is only one toilet on the market with a trapway larger than 3", and that is the Australian Caroma.
    Their 270 model has a 4" trapway.
    It sure beats breaking it up with a stick.

    For everyone else, a trapway of 2-1/8" is plenty.


    Caroma Sydney with 270 bowl.
    Last edited by Terry; 10-01-2011 at 11:17 AM.

  6. #6
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystor View Post
    Patient gets around and no bedpan is required. Changing diet is not the issue here. Sluggish bowel movements are a fact of life with this type of injury. I was hoping to find a toilet that is powerful enough to do the job.

    Go with pressure assist then but wear goggles and face mask when you flush!
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member achutch's Avatar
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    I have horrible bowels, and lost a day of work yesterday and spent 4 hours at the hospital because of them.

    Up until now, the only toilets that worked best for me were the old 7 gallon gushers with wall hung tank and bowl with the trap to the front; "Standard" MODERNUS is my signature toilet.

    I also have a TOTO Drake, installed 2 years ago, and with the workout it gets, I have not been able to plug it. It completely solved the toilet issues in my only bathroom with a 12-inch rough flange (couldn't put a 14-inch rough 7 gallon toilet in that spot) when everything else failed.

    Also suggest a dose of Metamucil in orange juice in the morning and to include apples and fruit in the diet.

    Goog luck.

    achutch

  8. #8
    DIY Junior Member Mystor's Avatar
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    Default Great information

    Thanks all. I looked at the 270 but did not see anything in the specs. Which toilet are you looking at Terry? Do you think I could get away with the Drake or should I also be looking at some type of power assisted flushing system. If you could name models I should look at that would be great! Thanks again.

  9. #9
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Any of the Caroma would work fine for large stools.
    They have the largest trapways by far.

    As to whether a 2-1/8" trapway would work in your case, it's hard to say.
    Both the pressure assist and the G-Max Gravity use about 1.6 gallons, and trapways in the 2" range. The exit on the Gerber pressure assist is about 2"

    You may want to go to some public bathrooms, and see how they work.

    99% of the population gets by fine with a 2" trapway.
    Less then 1% need the larger trapway that the Caroma has.
    Last edited by Reader Review; 06-13-2010 at 11:08 PM.

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    The advantage of a larger diameter trapway is that a stick can go around the curves better. I doubt there is any human that could create a stool large enough in diameter to not make it through a typical toilet...but, when you add in the fact it is long and hard, you need that extra diameter for it to navigate through.

    A pressure assist was discussed...I'm not sure that would make much of any difference except add costs and maintenance (not counting the noiser flush). If the trapway isn't big enough, until the stool has a chance to soften by sitting in the water, it's not going anywhere.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    I have sold about 30-40 of the Caromas. If any toilet is going to flush a large solid the Caroma will do it best. I have sold one to a gentleman who had the same problem as yours and he has no problem now.

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    Plumber jimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofa King View Post
    What is the diameter (girth) of said stool? Iffin' it's bigger than 4" that could be a problem for the Caroma...no?
    Sheesh!!! If it's bigger than 4", I think that will be a problem for something BEFORE it gets to the bowl!


    On a serious note, this is not an uncommon problem. Lots of people who are on certain meds have this problem also. You would be amazed at how often it comes up. Folks are a little sheepish at first, sort of embarassed to discuss it. Just put them at ease, tell them it is a very reasonable subject for discussion. The large trapway is the best advice I have been able to give. I have never dont a Caroma, but I think I am going to look into those. Although I am personally a fan of pressure assisteds,, in these cases I believe the large trapway is the better solution.

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member Mystor's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for all the information

    You are right, Spinal Cord injury is not a laughing matter. It has had a huge impact on our family and to top things off, who would have known something like bowel movements was also going to be a problem in our day-to-day life. My many thanks for the good info!!! If anyone has more good information that could help out, please post...

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member Cojon's Avatar
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    Post Stool problem

    This discussion, gross or not, is necessary and a part of life for some of us. It can't always be avoided. So, with anothers, as well as my own interest at, uh, well, end, I guess, here goes.

    You will pardon my puns, won't you. I simply can't let a prime opportunity get by without taking advantage of it.

    I too have very large hard stools due to the methadone and morphine I must take for chronic pain. I also take lasix to remove fluid build up in my leg. Due to a right inguinal lymphectomy some 20 years ago, huge amounts of fluids build and that can lead to cellulitis, or an infection in the subcutaneous layer of the skin from the presence of excessive plasma (90% water). It's very dangerous!

    So . . . considering the pain and possibility of death if I avoid medications, I accept the resulting monster turds, to use the vernacular, and continue to also suffer somewhat ingloriously with a waste removal problem. As it cannot be any other way, I accept it, and also seek a better solution.

    Those who suggested sticks and gloves to deal with fecal matter should be advised that it can contain dangerous bacteria; salmonella among others and contact can cause typhoid and paratyphoid fever. Salmonella can live for days, dry and out of the body and months in water. When cleaned up, it easily spreads and can becomes airborne, part of the water we use, and even find it's way into our food. Breathe it in, ingest it, and you can become extremely ill. Death is a real possibility. So, now that you have been advised, leave the stuff alone if at all possible.

    Any suggestion stools be allowed to "soak" and soften, is often made by those without hard stool experience. Yes, they will absorb water, but it often takes overnight or longer to create any reasonable fluid uptake that can result in sufficiently softened,actually flushable fecal matter.

    When I arise in the morning to visit the bathroom, brush my teeth and take a leak, the last thing I want is the sight and smell of yesterdays mess. I'm certain most modern folks would say much the same. So soaking isn;t something most want to deal with--although I have done it. Ugggghhhh!

    OK, on to the toilets . . . As a scientist and engineer, I am commonly called on to observe and suggest, and to eventually solve difficulties of all sorts. In this case, observations are vital, if a bit disgusting. Are the stools actually going into the trap? The lower bowl design of some toilets holds larger stools at the rim, keeping them from entering the opening to the trap. Stiff, hard, overly long stools are most prone to this. So look, and see if the stools that fail to flush, have actually entered the trap. If not, the design of the lower portion of the bowl may be too narrow. Most toilets actually have what appear to be two bowls. The upper larger one, and at the bottom, a smaller bowl shape that additionally contains the tap opening or entrance. The shape and size of this lower bowl may be what is giving us the the problems.

    I had a new toilet recently installed by an unconcerned contractor who did take my words seriously enough. He installed a toilet designed for the removal of normal size flexible stools, not the wide and lengthy, extremely compacted hard product of my intestinal tract. And, although it has 3 inch dump valve and a two and an eighth inch trap tunnel, the stools do not enter the trap easily. Instead, they tend to sit on top of that smaller, lower bowl, requiring multiple flushes or (good grief) an assist to properly enter the tunnel. Uck!

    When I have waited long enough and flushed often enough the stools eventually align moving into and through the trap easily. However, because the stools always hang up on the top portion of that lower bowl, they leave a mess that requires cleaning. Oh Ugghh!

    Additionally, there are indications that chlorine will damage the items in the tank. As I am on a country water system that requires excessive chlorine to kill known bacterial organisms, I am concerned with product longevity. (toilet parts, not stools) <Whew>

    This may not be a good purchase even though at only $98 bucks, it is less than many others that are also rated for 1000 gram flushing on a single try. FYI, the MaP flushing trials are performed using soy paste wrapped in plastic to simulate human waste.

    Interestingly, some time spent looking over the material provided by MaP reveals this toilet had an initial rating of only 600, to be later upgraded. Then it was called by another name. Niagara is the manufacturer of the Glacier Bay line of toilets sold at Home Depot. I cannot help but wonder if a redesign was committed without a nomenclature change to achieve this sparkling rating for only $98. It would not be the first time something similar has been pulled off by an American business.

    This particular toilet is a Glacier Bay model number 331-725 and was purchased at Home Depot. The MaP index gives it a 1000 gram, single flush capability, but those performing the test may not have been using soy paste of an abnormal length, girth, solidity, or enough soy paste units at one time to simulate an old man with an intestinal difficulty . . . like me. . In real turd tests, this toilet has extreme difficulty removing hard waste of size or length as it tends to sit on top of the lower bowl and does not easily reach the trap.

    My research seems to indicate that any of the pressure assisted toilets with a bowl shape that does not have an additional "minor bowl" at the bottom to keep the waste from entering the trap effectively may be useful for those of us with this difficulty. I have been investigating some of the Kohlers and the Highline and wellworth pressure lite models seem interesting. I have not seen the bowl design as yet however.

    I have not been able to look inside many toilets as I have trouble getting around, but a Google images search for "inside toilet bowl" revealed a wide variety of differing shapes.

    If you follow my URL's below, in the first image you can see a bowl containing blue fluid that could potentially trap lengthy hard stools on the edge of the lower bowl preventing them from entering the trap. They would have to be angled end down to go into this one.

    The second is better, and the 3rd is closer to ideal. They allow the fecal matter a much more natural course to end up entering the trap. I think this is what to look for. Regrettably however, this shape is not designed to ideally suit the 1,6 or 1.4 gallon flush capacity of today's high efficiency toilets. Still, this bowl shape, combined with both a wide throat and a polished, or highly smooth trap passage. If the trap tunnel curve is smooth and wide, not the typically short radius, it could be ideal. I know one of the Toto toilets comes close in specifications,but is not pressure assist. I have not seen it yet, so all I can offer is specifications.

    Combine the above with a power assisted flush and the problem may be as close to solved as possible. I would suggest a look at the Toto Ultramax toilet MS854114S. If I recall correctly, it has a well rounded 2 1/4 inch trap and a 3" dump valve. If the bowl and especially the lower bowl shape are proportioned correctly as well as decently designed, it may prove to be a realistic and affordable solution.

    May I suggest you look on line and review the MaP test reports. Not only will that provide a listing of current specifications, but it contains manufacturers model names and numbers that can be fed into an online search engine like Google that has image results. Perhaps the toilet can be reviewed both through specifications, MaP reports, customer approval ratings, and others before you waste your time and money on the purchase of a facility that once again, proves sadly ineffective.

    The URL's for the toilet images and MaP reports are below. They were too lengthy to include above as links.

    Toilet #1 - Poor http://www.makeyougohmm.com/images/2...let-inside.jpg

    Toilet #2 - Better http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/5...764118ec_m.jpg

    Toilet #3 - Best http://www.sharkenterprises.biz/jtm/toiletstains03.jpg

    Toilet #4 - excellent http://media.photobucket.com/image/t...0737.jpg?o=148


    16th edition MaP testing http://www.cuwcc.org/MaPTesting.aspx
    Contains numerous PDF files sorted by manufacturer, performance, flushometer.
    Scroll the web page down to see them sorted by gravity fed, dual flush, and pressure
    assisted.

    Good luck, I hope my natural desires to research have been of some assistance to you. I am well aware of how many people find this sort of research so detestable that it is just above cleaning a four day old clog from a well jammed up commercial toilet--by hand! If I can assist personally, please avail your self the opportunity to contact me via email. I just joined, so I am unsure if the site contains my email address, but, replacing AT with the proper symbol, and using cojon at the front and suddenlink.net as the ending, your message will arrive here. Sorry, but that manner of providing my address is the best method of stumping the internet combing bots that are responsible for my inbox having 600 or more monthly ad's.


    Good Day!
    John Marion Cook

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    John,
    Forget about the Map testing.

    The Map was done with paste wrapped in plastic, exactly 4" long and 3/4" in diameter.
    That test was for a normal usage of 250 grams.
    For those people, anything 500 grams or better is overkill.

    In the large hard stool category, the only toilet sold in the US that will address the problem is the Caroma that is made in Australia.
    I don't sell many of these, but for every caller, or email, or post like this, this is what I suggest.

    Your research is done.
    Caroma comes in several models.
    They all have trapways larger then 3"
    Both the 305 and the 270 bowls.
    You can put any tank on, they interchange.

    Please write back, and let us know.

    By the way, it's 2:55 AM, I'm on pain meds for a botched surgery. I wake every three hours from the pain, take the tablets, and answer a few questions. Life is still good.

    The only toilet sold that works with large stools



    Super large 3" trapway, an inch larger then everything else.



    Not much water in the bowl, but the trapway is huge, this is the fix for large stools.


    The Caroma Sydney comfort height round 270 bowl
    Last edited by Terry; 04-20-2010 at 03:01 AM.

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