How to lead a cast iron closet flange

tilelayher · Nov 15, 2007

I jumped over here from john bridge, i busted out my old ci closet flange because i needed to raise the height up because i am throwin a new tile floor in, i am stubborn and want to lead the new one in myself. I picked up a new ci 4x3" flange and a ladle some lead and some oakum. im going to gauge the floor with drypack to level it all nice nice then tile it and set the flange on top of my tile. I threw a spacer on the 4" pipe to give me something nice to tile to.

Anyways...... the guy at the plumbing shop said do u want the packing tool for the oakum and i said no cant i use a small screw driver or something? anyways can someone throw me directions on how to do this? what does it mean to caulk the joint after the lead is cool? what is the packing tool?

i could call my old friend who was a plumber but he has a new job workin 100 hours a week. also i tear up so many old wetbeds in old homes and when i see the flange its usually ci and broken in 20 spots and then they have to have a plumber come in and basically do what i am doing so it would be nice to know how to do this for my own knowledge.

thanks Derrick

Jimbo · Nov 16, 2007

Caulking I believe was originally the term for pressing the sealant into the joint. I think that on old wooden ships, a caulking iron was used to jam the oakum into the joints between the boards, and I think that on lead joints, it was used to jam the oakum, and then the lead was also "caulked" after it solidified.

Many, possibly most, plumbers, myself included, have never done a lead joint. It is a dying skill, and probaby not a recommended DIY project. There are other means to do this job.

If you want to do it, google is probably your friend here.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Jadnashua · Nov 16, 2007

As I understand it, the caulking tool is moderately wide and curved so you don't poke holes in the oakum, but tamp it down moderately evenly. It is narrow in the other direction so it can fit in the slot between the pipe and the hub. A screwdriver is more likely to result in an uneven layer, unevenly tamped, and therefore possibly subject to leaking.

Herk · Nov 16, 2007

You need a complete set of yarning and caulking tools for this job. First, to pack the oakum, which should be pre-oiled. Then, an inside and outside caulking iron to pack the lead into the joint.

How are you planning on heating the lead? It sure sounds like you're doing this the hard way. If CI is so good, why was the flange broken?

Cwhyu2 · Nov 16, 2007

I have done a lot of caulking.Okum makes the seal lead holds it in.
Caulking tools are made to do what a screwdriver cant.It is a skill that takes
time to aquiere.Pouring molton lead can be very dangerious.

tilelayher · Nov 16, 2007

I did this because someone did a jersey mud job in my house i tore it out and plan on wetbedding and tiling a new floor. I am a tilesetter by trade. I just mudded the floor tonight and i plan on tiling tomorrow. the flange was too low.

tilelayher · Nov 16, 2007

Herk, I picked up a ladle and I own a torch and I got a couple lbs of some lead

I see everyone has alot of confidence in me

Cwhyu2 · Nov 16, 2007

If the flange is not broken try a stack flange.

Herk · Nov 16, 2007

Tilelayher said:
herk i picked up a ladle and i own a torch and i got a couple lbs of some lead

i see everyone has alot of confidence in me

Why should we have confidence in you? You've never done this before, you have no idea what tools to use, let alone how they're used, there are a great many other, easier ways to replace a closet flange, lead is a toxic substance, and you're likely to injure yourself. I suppose you can melt lead with a torch, but it isn't practical to do so. Did you think that's how plumbers do it?

Can you do it? Sure. Should you do it? I wouldn't recommend it, but since your mind's made up, go for it.

Gary Swart · Nov 16, 2007

What would your response be to a lay person who wants to install his own tile and just wants to know what tools he needs? I'm pretty sure it would be much the same as those who have tried to warn you about the pitfalls of leading your own cast iron joint. In my not-so-humble opinion, you are asking for trouble. I's really urge you to reconsider and hire a professional or use a different method of installing the flange.

CHH · Nov 16, 2007

Oh good ***, grumble. This is a DIY forum. Lots of folks mess around with molten lead and alloys of molten lead. Ammo reloaders who cast their own bullets do it all the time. Anybody that handles wireline in the oil patch does it. It really isn't a big deal if you take a few precautions and wear suitable safety equipment.

Make sure everything is clean and dry. Water and molten lead are a bad combination. Cleanliness helps ensure the lead goes everywhere you want it to go.

Google up some guides on how to set up the joint. Do wear heavy gloves and face protection. Long sleeves, trousers, and heavy leather boots are a good idea. Maybe practice on a dummy joint just to get the procedure down. Remember that you're working indoors and try real hard not to burn the place down. Remember that vaporized lead is a really bad thing. Do a dry run to make sure the steps are known and feasible in the actual workspace you have available.

All that said, I've never poured a cast iron joint. I have poured countless wirerope sockets under all sorts of different conditions. Take your time, double check the setup and remember that you really don't want to have to tell anyone you're sorry.

Markts30 · Nov 16, 2007

Do yourself a favor and get a packing iron - it will save you time and grief...
As well, make sure the lead is hot enough - a cold joint is a really bad joint...LOL
As well - once molten, skim the dirty lead off the surface - remove all the floating dirt and visible impurities...
And remember - don't get so caught up in the puring and packing that you ensure the bolt holes for the closet are aligned right - with a lead and oakum joint, you don't get a chance later to change the ring orientation like some of the plastic rings...LOL

Lead joints are not that hard - but they do take some patience - at least it not a position pour you are doing - using a running rope is too hard to explain online...

tilelayher · Nov 16, 2007

I'm on johnbridge.com giving information on how to lay tile to rookies all the time. I don't tell em you can't do it and the odds are against you. I try to encourage them that they can do it. I'm not some rookie construction guy either. I can frame and solder and do electric and i have had success in these areas also so i am confident that i will have success here too. I was actually going to lead the joint in my boxers after drinking 10 beers. my friends an ex plumber and he's going to pack the joint I talked to him tonight, he even told me its pretty simple to do.

Thanks for all the negativity

hj · Nov 17, 2007

joint

I suppose you can melt lead with a torch, but it isn't practical to do so. Did you think that's how plumbers do it?

We do now when we only have a single joint to pour.

TMB9862 · Nov 17, 2007

Pouring lead isn't that difficult. It is hard to explain though, you really need someone to show you how to do it.

Basically pack the joint with oakum filling about half way. As you put the oakum in you need to pack it down with a packing tool. It should be packed down pretty tight, that's why you do it as you go along, don't fill up the joint then try and pack everything in one shot. You may be able to get away with only one or two packing tools but you really do need more than a screw driver.

Once that is done fill the joint with lead, once the lead dries that too gets packed down.

Cwhyu2 · Nov 17, 2007

hj said:
I suppose you can melt lead with a torch, but it isn't practical to do so. Did you think that's how plumbers do it?

We do now when we only have a single joint to pour.

We`ve used a kettle and pot to pour more than one joint. A laddle and torch can
do one joint. Practice helps. Marlin you said the right stuff that I could not put into words.

tilelayher · Nov 17, 2007

thanks!

im probably going to let my friend who was a plumber do it for me. ill get those packing tools

Jimbo · Nov 17, 2007

Mr. tileguy: I don't think anyone meant to dump on you, but the boys here do believe in calling a spade a spade.

Here is an analogy: I do tile work in my house, for the kids, etc. I use johnbridge for advice, and have always properly accomplished the moisture barrier, backer board, etc etc. As for the finish tile work, it comes out very good...IMHO. Could I stand it up against the work done by a professional tile layer.....no.

Same thing with the lead joint, except if the lead joint doesn't come out well, you can have a sewage leak. That is more serious than a crooked tile, so that is why the boys may seem a little negative. I think some good information was offered on how to do it, and it sounds like you are ready to go for it. No harm, no foul. Let us know how hard or easy it turns out.

Terry · Nov 17, 2007

I started plumbing in the early seventies.

I did pour one joint.

I think hj must be one of the few plumbers on this board that has done many of them. There may be others too, but I'm guessing that they started plumbing long before me.

Sometimes when hj says how easy it is for him, I get a bit jealous.
I'm from that later world of plumbing that uses no-hub couplings and rubber sleeves on hub joints. It would be nice to feel confident and practiced on poured lead joints.

GrumpyPlumber · Nov 18, 2007

That plastic stuff (liquid plastic, if I recall the name right) isn't legal here.
I've done countless lead/oakum joints, though resilient gaskets or no hubs are much more popular for their ease of use, there are situations where packing/pouring is unavoidable, in fact it's code that we must use them in several scenario's on CI & CI undergrounds in my state.

As for the need for experience when doing them, here's a story that really happened to a shop I once worked for:
New commercial rental space had just been completed and was now occupied.
There were two batteries for mens and womens rooms, the urinals and flanges had all been packed/poured.
A week into opening we got a call, the entire buildings plumbing was completely backed up.

After a full day with four guys running snakes and trying to isolate the source, the boss decided to have a sub come in with a camera the next day (new back then and very expensive), all the while the business had no plumbing and people were not happy.

The next day, a large clump of lead granules were found at a change of direction under the slab inside the building maybe 15 feet from the foundation.
The apprentice who'd worked the job had sworn up and down he knew how to pack a joint and apparently hadn't used enough oakum to retain all of the melting lead as he poured.

The floors were concrete and had to be opened/excavated to make the repairs, as well as the carpet, padding & part of a wall.
It was covered by his liability insurance, but the cost of his payroll on lost time and more importantly to his reputation was monetarily severe.
When I hear homeowners or handyman services proclaim "I know what I'm doing", it reminds me of that apprentice's reassurance to his boss that he too knew what he was doing.
Those of us who do this for a living can get a bit "fiesty" when people who don't do this every day speak of the work as though it's easy to learn fast.

How to lead a cast iron closet flange

Users who are viewing this thread

New Member

Plumber

Paid Advertisement

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

Plumber

Consultant

New Member

New Member

Consultant

Plumber

In the Trades

New Member

Commercial Plumber

New Member

Master Plumber

New Member

Consultant

New Member

Plumber

The Plumbing Wizard

Licensed Grump

Similar threads