How to heat copper pipe downstream and non-accessible?

Could you take a picture or two of the room to show us where the dead space with the pipes are located? I'm having a hard time visuallizing what this space looks like.

Your problem is with the contractor that installed the pipes without any thinking. I would have him fix it or replace it with pex that wont -at least- burst, even if they freeze.

If you can see the chase fom the basement, maybe you can open a hole in the wall in the upstairs room and let air naturally circulate through the wall.

But get on the guy that created this mistake.

I blew cellulose for several years. If you blow the entire area full it will only add to the problem. If you run a pipe up an outside wall or in an attic you have to insulate between the pipe and the cold and allow the heat to get to the pipe. I would also guess that part of the problem is with the cabinets. You need to get heat into them too. Put an open vent in the toe kick of the cabinet and maybe a vent in the floor of the cabinet. If possible run a small heat duct into the cabinet. When It gets real cold leave the cabinet door open and see if it works, if it does then get heat and warm air to circulate inside the cabinet. Never ever insulate between a pipe and the warm space. I would do like you said and go in from the outside and insulate between the pipe and the cold only. If there is a cabinet there then why not heat it and cut a vent into the wall cavity? For $800 they should have insulated between the pipe and the cold.

Just let the faucets run a small stream of water during those rare cold snaps, Works great here in the midwest. Or like some one else said make the contractor that made the mess fix the mess.

best to put more insulation between the cold side and the pipe. That is always true. One way to do that is to ensure there is more empty filler between the pipe and the inner side. Like bubble wrap. Then, the blow in stuff fills the rest of the space.

ya gotta be there, ya gotta see the space.

everyone is asking for pictures.

david

jadnashua said:

I looked at several HW recycling systems, and put in a Redy-temp system a few years ago. It has several good points: it is very easy and quick to install...literally, you could install it in 15-minutes. It has a user adjustable thermostat that lets you decide how warm you want the water in the system when it stops. It is easily controlled by either a timer, X10 systems, or you could use a momentary switch to only turn it on when you wanted. From a power standpoint, because it doesn't run all the time, it saves a little power. Recirc pumps don't draw all that much, though.

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If I were to search for one of these Redy-temp systems, what exactly would I be searching for? Is there a specific model? I am planning on doing a Google search but wanted to know if you had some specifics first.

Thanks!

gtmtnbiker said:

Could you take a picture or two of the room to show us where the dead space with the pipes are located? I'm having a hard time visuallizing what this space looks like.

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Here you go. Good thing I am anal and took dozens of pictures during the construction.

As you can see the pipes come up from the basement in the left/middle of the cavity but exit at the top left. He used flex copper. And where they run up to the top left, they are right against the 2x4 that is against the outside sheathing. The flex duct you see is a return duct from upstairs to the basement. Too bad that covers much of the picture.

That cavity was eventually covered by drywall and base and wall cabinets are now in front of it.

Note.. the window that WAS there was replaced by plywood. 3/4 or 1" I think.

http://www.redytemp.com/ It's not the least expensive unit out there, but it does work, and it is easy to install. How long it'll work, I don't know...mine has been in for about 3-years now.

KirbFeeler said:

Just let the faucets run a small stream of water during those rare cold snaps, Works great here in the midwest. Or like some one else said make the contractor that made the mess fix the mess.

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Now thats a great way to end up with a frozen drain which is about impossible to thaw without using a jetter.

Really? It's pretty common practice everywhere I've lived in the NE (New Brunswick, Quebec, Vermont, New York).

I've never heard of that problem.

frenchie said:

Really? It's pretty common practice everywhere I've lived in the NE (New Brunswick, Quebec, Vermont, New York).

I've never heard of that problem.

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Ya learn something new every day Frenchie!

It is very common for a shallow drain line in the ground or one located in an outside wall to freeze with a low flow of water into it. Dripping faucets, leaking flappers, Faucets set to a low flow are running to small a flow to stay above freezing in many such lines. Where it frezes it stops until eventually the pipe is full of ice. The problem is metal drain lines exceed the maximum dia. of the Hot Shot Pipe Thawing machines and many drain lines are non-conductive leaving the jetter as the only option to thaw the ice.

The only way a drain can freeze is if it is clogged and freezes or, if there was a flow slow enough that the waste water cooled and froze before the end of the pipe. Wanna ride on the jetter and see a few?

gtmtnbiker said:

Could you take a picture or two of the room to show us where the dead space with the pipes are located? I'm having a hard time visuallizing what this space looks like.

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And here's some of the finished kitchen and one from the outside..

You can see why it's a bit difficult to get to that area from the kitchen itself..

Worst case, just drill a largish hole through whatever's in the way, into the cavity, and poke a hair dryer in there during the cold snaps. Looks like you could get access from below, or maybe from the outside. If there's access from above and below, you might could fish a heat tape through the cavity.

No comments after I posted all those pictures? except for jadnashua's..thank you.

I don't want to beat this dead horse but I just wanted to see if people's opinion/thoughts/ideas changed now that you can see the inside cavity and what the finished kitchen looks like (shows how i can't exactly access it from the inside).

Check the pics on page 2 if you get a chance!

Thanks!

I have a similar stove and microwave.

Strange - properly insulated, that shouldn't freeze - Assuming that they didn't insulate the interior wall of the void that was created???

Just add a vent up into the void from below - put a screen on it to keep littler critters out. note that this is probably again building/fire code.

The pump does provide a nice solution, along with the hot water benefit.

lots of babble below here......

also, they must have insulated the area where the window was? perhaps the 2nd floor rim joist wasn't insulated (it isn't required to be, but would have been nice)

do you know if the joist bay was blocked from the void?? a small vent in the floor upstairs would also help, somewhere along that joist bay. you might even be able to snake electricity through. (looks like one of the can lights is in that joist bay ?, if would provide some warm air leak, if there was an opening below)

bob nh's engineering solution will work, if you are using a well. but wouldn't you need a tank for both hot and cold? and if nobody was home for a night, that would be the one where it froze....so i'd stay away from that.

gl, looks nice - but as mentioned, you might spend much more than your kitchen repairing a leak that starts on friday while you are away for the weekend.....

you could "neatly" cut out the back of one of your lower cabinets to gain access to the space - then frame it with some trim moulding, and put it back as a hatch....

MG said:

I have a similar stove and microwave.

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Not exactly the comments I was looking for! But good to know!!

great site. It's my first post, so be gentle.

This looks like a plain case of "heat can't get to pipes", not "cold is getting to pipes", provided there isn't another cause of heat loss, like a gaping baseplate or the like.

IF you have access to the chase from above, cut a register-sized hole. That should be near where the piece of flex duct terminates in your picture (not sure).

Cut a matching hole in the basement at/ around the piping.

This "should" allow the air in the space to circulate and heat.

The general idea is to give the space access to heat. As long as air can move it should be able to sort itself out.

One question- where does the microwave/stove exaust dump out? If it exits to cold it might be close to outside tempature when not in use. And if the pipes are near that.....

Osmod

edit- more or less what post #23 said.....