(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 46

Thread: Box capacity exceeded, need advice

  1. #31

    Default

    See, now this does annoy me. Where are you getting this from???

    From your occaisional self rightious posts.


    I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.

    Heh heh...he called me "son".


    You give the clear impression that you LIVE in the grey zone, while some of us slip into it momentarily.
    And your point is that you are somehow superior because of these differences?

    Now I'm done
    Heh....I've heard that before. Try to remember that it's JUST a conversation.



    And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.

    "Man turns himself in for decades old speeding violation" Sherriff's deputies were taken by surprise yesterday by a man who wanted to confess to having violated the speed limit by as much as 2 MPH on several occaisions in his life time. He appeared incoherrant and kept mumbling something about "310.24" and how we are all "going to the hogs". One official suggested the the man may have suffered "multiple electrical shocks thoughout his career" and this may explain his behavior.


    Edit to answer JW's question.

    If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?
    I think I am comfortably in the middle but I'm a moving target. Someone at the opposite end would advocate total anarchy and that is just as bad as a dictatorship.
    Last edited by Alectrician; 11-13-2007 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #32
    DIY Member Bassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ventura, CA
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Well, while you guys were arguing, I installed my range hood. The box now has 17 or 18 cu. in. of wire and the hood is hard-wired. And it sucks...er... blows...whatever.

  3. #33
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,412

    Default

    Come on guys...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people. It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code. If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed. In the meantime, do it by the book! That's why they wrote the code and there are inspectors. I know some inspectors are a joke, but that doesn't detract from the fact that when you got your license, you basically signed a statement saying you would do work according to the code. What is your promise worth? When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well? Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it. From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.

    Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical. For those of you that buy something over the net, I'll bet you go right down to the state tax people and pay your fair share of sales tax, too. Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.

    If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  4. #34
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NY State, USA
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
    And it sucks...er... blows...whatever.
    Kinda like the latter part of this thread, huh?

  5. #35

    Default

    ...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people.

    Same with any law.





    It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code.

    I'm not getting paid to argue points here.




    If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed In the meantime, do it by the book!
    .

    I am talking about real life here.



    When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well?
    I am proud of my work. Having one extra wire in a jbox is nothing to be ashamed of. In MY opinion there are many LEGAL jobs that I would be ashamed to be a part of.

    Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it.

    EVERYONE on earth except JW "fudges" . Pete admits to "fudging" He just believes that he is a better judge of how much cheating is allowed.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job
    .

    Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.
    Which is it? Never violate code or only violate code sometimes?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------




    Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical.
    The comparison was to point out that breaking a law doesn't necessarily equate to reckless behavior (although JW would respectfull disagree)





    Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.

    Again, what will happen If I put one wire too many in a box like that? Nothing........ EVER.


    If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread
    .


    This is nasty? You must be a lot more sensitive than I am. This is not even a heated debate in my opinion. The only reason to lock the thread would be to avoid the questions posed.



    As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me

    I assume you mean me, although Petey also violates the code.

  6. #36

    Default

    Anyone got a fork?

    Stick it in this thread. It's done!
    Just my 2¢ worth.

  7. #37
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.
    I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.
    Didn't make any kind of head lines but did gain a lot of respect from my family. Now it is your turn and I am eagerly awaiting the outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Come on guys
    If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me.
    You have my vote to lock her down now although there are some that are learning from the thread and I hope to have them join in the next few days. I always have my students wait until they have graduated before joining a site that we use in the classroom and this one draws to an end so they will be free to join.

  8. #38
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY and Fire Island, NY
    Posts
    1,244

    Talking

    Okay now, this is gonna be interesting.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
    Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member BrianJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.
    .

    Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.

  10. #40

    Default

    I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.

    I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting.




    Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.
    Be careful casting those stones Brian. You are insinuating that:

    A). You and your employees never ever violate code.

    B). You run an unprofessional shop.

    There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons.



    And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.

  11. #41
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting.
    I can understand your disbelief as this world has turned in the direction of chaos so all you have to go on is my word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons.
    When the proper procedures are followed by “special permission” alternate methods can be done per the NEC.
    Installing extra “cables” in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
    The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
    NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
    PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
    Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
    Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
    If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
    If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
    Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock.
    I will be more than happy to explain to anyone that the codes and as used here the NEC is a bare minimum safety standard. To do anything less would be below safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.
    I do appreciate those words of kindness and will always strive to live up to them but I must strongly disagree with your advice to challenge authority. I would agree that is alright to disagree with authority and there are procedures that can be followed should you disagree with authority.
    It is also good to always question the “why” of a situation. We should always ask ourselves why. Never lose the ability to think for yourselves and always strive to be the best that you can be.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member BrianJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    No you are casting stones.

    One you have no clue what I do for a living. As for my employees

    I endeavour to MAKE SURE everything I do is per the NEC, if I find my employees doing less that quality work work that in any way violates the NEC they will fix, repair, replace. I eat the labor and material. I have lost money because of a so called qualified electrician doing slacker quality work. I would rather be out of business that have SLACKER quality work installed. I try and inspect all my jobs.


    There are minor violations every single day.
    I do not argue this BUT if you knowingly allow this you are IMO and the opinion of the VAST majority of qualified electricians A SLACKER.

    Al you are arguing that completing installations that are sub standard is acceptable, and someone you admit is knowledgeable (JW) you are telling him this sub standard work is OK. Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code. Look at your argument....If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.

    If you are using any of these editions of the NEC you should probably upgrade.

    Last edited by BrianJohn; 11-14-2007 at 10:35 AM.

  13. #43
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    A man after my heart. Lovely reading

  14. #44

    Default

    Installing extra “cables” in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
    The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
    NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
    PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
    Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
    Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
    If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
    If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
    Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock

    Uhhh...I know this.

    No you are casting stones.

    I am casting stones? Come on. I am just calling out anyone who claims to be 100% compliant. JW is the only one who says he is. You say you TRY to be on top but I know what that means. You can't be everywhere.


    you have no clue what I do for a living
    I assumed you were an EC. No?

    Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code.
    That is correct. I consider myself an expert and there are SOME things I know more about that the people that write code. There is a LOT of gray area between blatent disregard and 100 percent compliance. I am not afraid to make those calls.

    Like I've stated before, there are many things allowed by code that are downright dangerous. I wouuldn't have any part of installing expose cable on a building, legal or not. I would not install unprotected service entrance wiring into a building, legal or not. I generally refuse to install underground IMC because it just-won't-last.




    If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.
    I put a VERY high value on myself Brian but very little of it has to do with what someone on a message board thinks of me. I am open and honest and will let people decide whatever they want about me.

    While you are preaching about earning respect you might want to reconsider using personal insults (hack, slacker etc) if you want communicate effectively. I have pretty thick skin but when my integrety is repeatedly questioned I tend to return fire. It's human nature.
    I won't likely do this here because the thread will get locked an I will end up the villian.

  15. #45
    DIY Senior Member BrianJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    Al Among many of the services I provide I do independent inspections for building owners, GC's, data centers, hospitals, TV and radio stations, my job is to find any work related issue NEC violation or what I consider sub par work that may lead to issues down the road. So if I am to point my finger at other electrical contractors in writing I need to make sure/ know my men are complying with the code.

    I can not afford to walk into a meeting and have something flung back at me as I point it out the same issue to an electrical contractor.

    In addition I do grounding inspections, Ground Fault Investigations, power quality studies, electrical testing of any electrical distribution equipment, Infra Red, electrical fault investigations and repair, also many of my customers are electrical contractors that have issues they can not resolve.

    Many of the issues I see in performing ground inspections and power quality studies are directly related to the quality of the work.

    Recently did a power quality grounding investigation at a broadcast recording facility, trying to locate the source of hum bars in the visual equipment, narrowed it down to an overstuffed box with a 2" 6/32 screw just nicking the neutral/grounded conductor, this ground current was the source of the hum bars. the 2" screw was not necessary as the box was surface mount, a 1" screw would have been more than adequate.

    The point is the simple things can lead to major issues. Major in the sense that this was time consuming, costly and affected the site operations for months while the GC, EC, AV guy and owner argued the problem out.

    And while you should be proud of your trade, you career and the quality of work you perform, I will continue to use the term slacker for anyone doing what I consider sub par work, be it an employee (ASK MY EMPLOYEES) or another electrician or contractor.
    Last edited by BrianJohn; 11-14-2007 at 02:36 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •