It's done, thank you gentlemen.
The other problem with the driving-the-speed-limit analogy is that we're not talking about what you do. We're talking about what you're advising people to do.
Better analogy'd be a driving instructor, teaching people that it's okay to drive over the limit. And burn a red light if nobody's coming. Or cross the line a bit on curves, on deserted winding roads...
Master Plumber Mark:
there is nothing better than the
manly smell of WD 40 in the air
while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...
it smells like......victory......
do not hit your thumb...
Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.
There ya go! Looks fine.
You'll likely have to move the 12/2 over to the left just a bit when the hood gets mounted. No big deal since the hood will cover anything you do.
I do not know AL and he may be the worlds best BUTHere we go again
This is a typical almost an electrician response.
I perform independent inspections (among other things) and it is my experience that electricians that say, "come on it is only a ______________". It is not that big a deal.
This is an excuse they are using EVERYDAY.
You are either 100% or not.
Last edited by BrianJohn; 11-12-2007 at 05:48 AM.
A minor violation IMO would be one or two inches over the capacity
Dude, you rag on me for MY opinion yet you violate the code and it's somehow OK?
You don't see the problem with that?
At least guys like JW will stick to their guns and claim they NEVER violate code.
I can make up a box with 4 14/2 and a 12/2 going right to the outlet with PLENTY of room. The 14/2's would probably take up the back 1/3 of the box.
JW and others are VERY smart guys, but I am not them and they are not me. We do agree on most things though.
I am most certainly "sticking to my guns"
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It's just I DO NOT suggest to a DIYer anything that would violate any codes.
If I feel one conductor over box fill is not a major violation that is my prerogative. I would just not suggest anyone else do the same.
Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine. Using the box fill scenario I think me making up a box with one too many wires is a BIG difference from a DIYer doing the same.
At the same time, making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!
Last edited by Speedy Petey; 11-12-2007 at 04:23 PM.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.
But yours is right and mine is somehow wrong?
Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine.
I have probably been doing it every day longer than you have.
Blatent stupidity is believing that you are somehow a better judge of right and wrong than I am.making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!
You can backpeddle all day long but you can't get out of this one.
Back to the original post. Put the BS aside and educate me.
I didn't bother calculating the box fill, I never do. I just go from experience.
They might have changed it since the last time I actually looked it up (1970 something) but are'nt the wires 2 cubic inches each, the grounds a total of 1 and the device 2?
Isn't that 22?
Last edited by Alectrician; 11-13-2007 at 01:33 AM.
This is Electric 101 stuff and you still don't know it.
No "dude", wires are NOT 2" each. #14 wire is. #12 wire is 2.25". Devices count as two, ALL the grounds count as one. The grounds and devices, etc, use the largest conductor in figuring fill.
You know what, we can quote quotes for days and you will still be your kind of electrician.
I am done with this thread. it's just not worth it.
Reply if you like, I know you will. I don't care.
I didn't even do this post; it was someone else doing it!!!
Code is code and the speed limit is the speed limit!!!
In my state one can lose their electrical license for doing non-code compliant installations.
I think that someone that would drive 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone should have their vehicle impounded and sold at public auction and their privilege to drive suspended for a period of not less than twenty years.
One of the stipulations of their probation should be that if they are caught walking along the side of the road after losing their licenses for speeding their shoes and socks should be taken on the spot.
Maybe this would teach them that after spending the money to have a sign made, paying someone to install the sign, hiring someone to patrol the highways and doing this in a new car that the taxpayers bought with all the bells and whistles that come on those cars they would learn to drive the speed limit.
If we as taxpayers are not going to abide by the laws that we pay an ungodly amount of money to our lawmakers to design then why don’t we just fire the law makers and do as we please.
Also just what are we teaching our children? Aren’t we teaching them from a very early age that the laws are something to ignore?
When they break one to the rules we set for them what is the outcome? Don’t we punish them?
It is our job as parents to be a mentor for our children as well as all children and teach them that it is not alright to break the rules and laws that are set by those who we elect but instead to abide by all rules and laws.
Now I want everyone who is a member of this forum to go down to the court house in the morning and tell the Judge the truth if you have been speeding and take your medicine. Don’t wait until you have been caught just go down and tell the Judge what you have done and that you feel as you should receive the maximum punishment the law will allow.
Last edited by jwelectric; 11-13-2007 at 08:43 AM.
Petey, all you have to do is stop thumping your chest whenever you disagre with me and your blood pressure will stay in the healthy range. You really shouldn't get all worked up like that.
And JW...the funny thing is.... I can't tell where your seriousness ends and the sarcasm begins. You DID mix some sarcasm in your post, didn't you?
Both you clowns need to relax a little.
According to Pete, the reason that the box is a SERIOUS violation is simply because ONE of the cables is #12 ....the one with NO make up that goes directly to the receptacle.
Do the 14's take up more space because there is a 12 in there? Do they swell up to somehow defend themselves in a priimal manner against this intruder?
I allow myself to make decisions when I am working just like Pete and everyone else except JW does. This "serious violation" is a no brainer....it's a non issue.
I understand the need for law and regulation. I also understand that it is difficult to write them in a 100% effective manner and generally it's best to error on the side of caution. A reasonable person is allowed to think for himself.
If anyone can explain the danger of one extra cable in this box, I am all ears.
And yes, I DO think it's funny that we are still going at it long after the item was resolved/corrected
If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place? Why pay all the people that are being paid to enforce a law that we are going to ignore?
How can we expect our children to abide by the rules that are set forth for them if we don’t abide by the rules that are set forth for us?
All one has to do before punishing their children is ask how much we have contributed to their actions.
I ask myself daily why this country has gone to the hogs like it has over my life time. Kids today have no respect for others or their selves.
How has this come about?
They learned it from the adults in their lives. Just a they learn to talk by listening to adults talk they learn to respect the law and other people by watching how Mom and Dad do these things or the actions of other adults.
I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.
It is my job as an adult to be a mentor for the young. Let my actions speak for my respect for the law not my words which are always different than my actions.
OK...NOW you are starting to scare me.I am serious about everyone going to the courthouse first thing in the morning and turning their self in for speeding.
Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions. Everyone has different grey areas and yours would be the most restrictive of anyone I have ever met. It's not a bad thing...just different. It take people like you and me to balance things out. Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult of humans blindly following the authoritarian rule.If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place?
If you have ever read about those cults that somehow convince people to take their own lives you will find that the first step is to remove ALL decisions that "normal" people would have to make. Once you start trusting someone else to make all of your decisions your brain turns to mush and accepts anything it is told.
Well, using THAT logic, the reason your son or daughter does it is because you did it. PART of the reason is because that's the way his parents taught him (by example) but there are other influences in his life. There always will be.I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.
You will be on one extreme end trying to teach him. He will no doubt run into some unsavory characters in his youth on the other end of the spectrum that will try to teach him to lie, cheat and steal. HOPEFULLY he will make good decisions and end up in a healthy middle ground.
It is easy for someone that abides by the law seeing someone that breaks the law using the phrase “gray area” as an excuse.
Could I leave my house today and be gone for a week with no locks on the door? Would you let your children travel 25 miles one way and spend all day in town by their selves today?
I find that most people that think of their self as being “normal” really mean that they have become complicit. They are the same people that change lanes without looking and speed through a caution light.
The type of person that would not say anything if given back to much money without though of the person getting short changed but would do everything short of being arrested if they are shorted on change.
Not saying that this is either one of us, as you said, “Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult.”
It seems that you think us to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?
They are listening as well as I explain to them the battles I faced with unsavory influences. As long as we can continue to learn from each other I don’t believe that unsavory influences will stand much of a chance to come between us. The one thing that will open the door to allow other influences to sway the thinking of my offspring is for me to start telling what their problems are instead of listening to them tell which problem they think has priority.
It the box is 18 cubit inches then to fill it to 18.5 would be wrong. To drive 40 in a 35 MPH speed zone would be wrong as well as life threating to those who abide by the law.
I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.
Now I'm done.