Box capacity exceeded, need advice

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JWelectric

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I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting.
I can understand your disbelief as this world has turned in the direction of chaos so all you have to go on is my word.

There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons.
When the proper procedures are followed by “special permission†alternate methods can be done per the NEC.
Installing extra “cables†in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock.
I will be more than happy to explain to anyone that the codes and as used here the NEC is a bare minimum safety standard. To do anything less would be below safety.

And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.

I do appreciate those words of kindness and will always strive to live up to them but I must strongly disagree with your advice to challenge authority. I would agree that is alright to disagree with authority and there are procedures that can be followed should you disagree with authority.
It is also good to always question the “why†of a situation. We should always ask ourselves why. Never lose the ability to think for yourselves and always strive to be the best that you can be.
 

BrianJohn

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No you are casting stones.

One you have no clue what I do for a living. As for my employees

I endeavour to MAKE SURE everything I do is per the NEC, if I find my employees doing less that quality work work that in any way violates the NEC they will fix, repair, replace. I eat the labor and material. I have lost money because of a so called qualified electrician doing slacker quality work. I would rather be out of business that have SLACKER quality work installed. I try and inspect all my jobs.


There are minor violations every single day.

I do not argue this BUT if you knowingly allow this you are IMO and the opinion of the VAST majority of qualified electricians A SLACKER.

Al you are arguing that completing installations that are sub standard is acceptable, and someone you admit is knowledgeable (JW) you are telling him this sub standard work is OK. Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code. Look at your argument....If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.

If you are using any of these editions of the NEC you should probably upgrade.

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Alectrician

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Installing extra “cables†in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock


Uhhh...I know this.

No you are casting stones.


I am casting stones? Come on. I am just calling out anyone who claims to be 100% compliant. JW is the only one who says he is. You say you TRY to be on top but I know what that means. You can't be everywhere.


you have no clue what I do for a living

I assumed you were an EC. No?

Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code.

That is correct. I consider myself an expert and there are SOME things I know more about that the people that write code. There is a LOT of gray area between blatent disregard and 100 percent compliance. I am not afraid to make those calls.

Like I've stated before, there are many things allowed by code that are downright dangerous. I wouuldn't have any part of installing expose cable on a building, legal or not. I would not install unprotected service entrance wiring into a building, legal or not. I generally refuse to install underground IMC because it just-won't-last.




If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.

I put a VERY high value on myself Brian but very little of it has to do with what someone on a message board thinks of me. I am open and honest and will let people decide whatever they want about me.

While you are preaching about earning respect you might want to reconsider using personal insults (hack, slacker etc) if you want communicate effectively. I have pretty thick skin but when my integrety is repeatedly questioned I tend to return fire. It's human nature.
I won't likely do this here because the thread will get locked an I will end up the villian.
 

BrianJohn

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Al Among many of the services I provide I do independent inspections for building owners, GC's, data centers, hospitals, TV and radio stations, my job is to find any work related issue NEC violation or what I consider sub par work that may lead to issues down the road. So if I am to point my finger at other electrical contractors in writing I need to make sure/ know my men are complying with the code.

I can not afford to walk into a meeting and have something flung back at me as I point it out the same issue to an electrical contractor.

In addition I do grounding inspections, Ground Fault Investigations, power quality studies, electrical testing of any electrical distribution equipment, Infra Red, electrical fault investigations and repair, also many of my customers are electrical contractors that have issues they can not resolve.

Many of the issues I see in performing ground inspections and power quality studies are directly related to the quality of the work.

Recently did a power quality grounding investigation at a broadcast recording facility, trying to locate the source of hum bars in the visual equipment, narrowed it down to an overstuffed box with a 2" 6/32 screw just nicking the neutral/grounded conductor, this ground current was the source of the hum bars. the 2" screw was not necessary as the box was surface mount, a 1" screw would have been more than adequate.

The point is the simple things can lead to major issues. Major in the sense that this was time consuming, costly and affected the site operations for months while the GC, EC, AV guy and owner argued the problem out.

And while you should be proud of your trade, you career and the quality of work you perform, I will continue to use the term slacker for anyone doing what I consider sub par work, be it an employee (ASK MY EMPLOYEES) or another electrician or contractor.
 
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Alectrician

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The point is the simple things can lead to major issues.

I would not debate that at all. It wasn't a code violation to use a screw that ran into the conductors it was poor workmanship by the installer. I have pulled screws out of wires too many times to remember.

I have alway just done bread and butter electrical work and wouldn't have a clue about most of the things you do. I do however know about MY jobs. I know how to do things safely and efficently even though I sometimes drive over the speed limit.

Here is another code I used to frequently violate. We were contracted to run power to automatic drveway gates for a local contractor. Code says 24" depth across driveways, 6" more than "normal" which I understand. Every 10 years or so the asphalt would have to be ripped up, regraded and replaced so they want it a little deeper.

One type of gate was a rolling gate that required power on both sides. They would dig a trench abour 8" wide by 8" deep for the concrete "footing" that would support the gate track. I would run my conduit at the bottom of that trench and call it good. It will be protected as long as the gate is there. If the gate goes, it will be disconnected.

Even though it is against code no one can explain how it is dangerous. I feel that I am allowed to use my brain. I feel COMPELLED to use my brain.
 
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