Electromagnetic water softener (descaler)

eeeeek!! Another Link!!!

I have no experience with these type "softeners" but I do have some experience with the more traditional units that add salt. Not as an installer but as a plumbing service provider that had to explain to the HO that because the nitwit who installed it made a direct connection from the discharge line of the unit to her 40' long 2" kitchen drain line, that the discharge brine solution introduced into her sanitary drainage system from the self cleaning function of the unit had hardened to almost rock status and was closing off more or less the entire downstream length of her drain line. By the way, the direct connection was made by drilling a hole in the vertical section of her ks drain coming from upstairs and gluing some type of 1/2" plug which appeared to be abs (the pipe it was glued into was pvc) to which the discharge line was hose clamped to.

I don't know if the other types work or not but I know that the type that add salt have plenty of problems too.

As far as the electromagnetic type only being smoke and mirrors I think everyone should consider this, "15 years ago" if you owned a cell phone it was most certainly of an analog type and you probably needed a suitcase to carry it around in but the technology progressed to what we have today. Is it unreasonable to think that this technology even if it has been flawed in the past can't progress as well?

I do, for the record, have an interest in this. I represent no company but my own but as a plumbing service provider I would love to offer something that works and does'nt require the addition of chemicals. If it does'nt work then I don't want it because it only makes me look bad but if it does or maybe one day soon will, what a great product.

lifespeed said:

I must say, what a bunch of old dogs that can't learn new tricks. Although the abundance of scammer products clearly pollutes the pool.

Lifespeed

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If this is such a great technology, why don't you give us some links to the PRODUCTS that anyone has for sale, with the specifications for the warranted performance?

Bob NH said:

If this is such a great technology, why don't you give us some links to the PRODUCTS that anyone has for sale, with the specifications for the warranted performance?

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Did I miss something? Did'nt he do that already?

smellslike$tome said:

Did I miss something? Did'nt he do that already?

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I checked the links and found words without a single specification of what the product does and is warranted to do. What does the product do to the water that is measurable, and how does that relate to improvement of a condition that is causing a problem? What are the properties that I can measure to determine if it is working? What are the operating conditions over which it is warranted to perform?

The text material describing the process is not even literate in the languge of water treatment. If the idiot doesn't know the difference between "cautions" and "cations" then he knows nothing about water treatment and is selling "snake oil".

"The polarized cautions, such as calcium and magnesium, associate (micro) electrically in a water solution with other complementary particles (anions) in the form of ionic conglomerates and continue their way with the water flow." http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html

just another bunch of crapola - if you spend anything at all on removing minerals from your water supply, use traditional water-softeners and the like

a variation on this theme could always be found in the pages of Popular Mechanics, for this or that miracle scheme to increase your gas mileage

The Corps of Engineers took a look at this technology a few years after the DOE paper. Here's a snip from the conclusions section of their paper:

"These findings do not support the claims of the manufacturers regarding the ability of their respective devices to prevent mineral scale formation..."

Sam Smith
Knoxville, TN

RUGGED said:

You tellem Furd!!!

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Umm, who is em and what exactly am I supposed to tell?

The link I previously supplied was concerning a system know as a Dolphin. This is a proprietary system that uses a pulsed electromagnet. It was installed on an "open" cooling tower serving the cooling needs of four centrifugal air compressors in an industrial facility.

As I recall, the installed cost of this system was more than $15,000 and the operating costs, even with electricity at less than five cents per kilowatt hour, were not inconsequential. It was found that under closely controlled (with a minimum of additional chemical treatment) and using relatively soft (but not zero-hardness "softened") make-up water the Dolphin system could minimize corrosion and scaling.

This does NOT translate as a substitute for residential water-softening systems either on a cost-effective basis OR as a better control.

It would probably be a good idea at this point to inject a simple fact. Any chemists are welcome to rebut me, because I always like to learn. Simply, magnets work on iron, boron, neodymium. They do not work on calcium, sodium, or other flavors of rock. There is nothing in drinking water that can be affected by a magnet.

From this page:

"Some proponents also suggest the use of magnets to reduce hard water in homes. According to product manufacturers, large magnets can reduce the level of hard water scale by eliminating ferromagnetic hard-water minerals. However, the minerals that generally cause hard water are not ferromagnetic. A two-year Consumer Reports study also suggests that treating incoming water with magnets does not change the amount of scale buildup in a household water heater."

"em" is the viewing public and you answered your own question regarding what to tell "em"....


which is the fact that the system you spoke of was $15 grand (out of touch with the majority) and shouldn't be used as a substitute.


I get customers all the time that are too lazy to maintain a water softener. They'll drag a huge bag of kitty litter to their basement but mention salt and won't do it.

RUGGED said:

I get customers all the time that are too lazy to maintain a water softener. They'll drag a huge bag of kitty litter to their basement but mention salt and won't do it.

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I gotta laugh at that. At my last job we bought salt for the softeners about every three months. Two tons at a time.

My fav line was the term "micro" elements.....


balderdash!

ahh.... the reasons why...

Furd said:

I gotta laugh at that. At my last job we bought salt for the softeners about every three months. Two tons at a time.

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I'm guessing the chemicals Not used on the "Dolphin" installation just about balance out the installation cost in a year. So the 15,000 $ cost is reasonable for that installation, IF ... it works.


I DO NOT sell or profit from the sale of any of these devices.

Since ... everything is made up of atoms that have electrons. Some materials have "extra" electrons, and some have places for "extra" electrons to bond to.

anything to get those bonds to happen in a way other than scaling out and fouling equipment may be desirable. IF there is a way to play with the molecule's charge and get them to stick together in a group that no longer has the wish / ability to become scale...... that would mean less harmful and expensive chemicals used to combat scale.

"Magnetic Water Treatment" can work. LIMITEDLY. I've seen it. Too many expect it to do things it doesn't do.!.!.

There are many applications that are not good ones. The charge manipulation makes it possible for reactions to happen, doesn't force them, and if the reaction doesn't happen before the "charge" dissipates it reverts to working the old way.
That's probably why magnetic treatment seems to be finding more places it works within systems that are once thru or recirculating within a limited time frame. (probably a few hours maximum.) When cooling tower water comes back and gets treated again and again the scaling components can actually agglomerate large enough to be separated / filtered out ... and that's good.
I personally am still looking for how to apply this to boiler water treatment. I have to add chemicals to control scale, corrosion, and then more chemicals to handle whats left over from the chemical treatment... and then blow down some of the boiler's water to keep it from being too concentrated. It's expensive, and I'm open for ways to reduce expenses.

I want one that has flashing LED's like this so I know it's working.

Freakin Disco Water Conditioning

The more it flashes the harder these electrons are working...

The biggest problem is even if the magnets could precipitate enough of the minerals to make a differance, you still have to do something with them. In traditional softeners they adhere to the resin bed and are later flushed. In the Magnet system they still discharge through the faucet. Makes one scratch the old noggin, but you can sell ice to exkimo's if you talk fast enough.

First, the claims I have seen are not that the systems precipitate the minerals, but somehow "align the molecules" in a manner that they do not precitate on your faucets and on the bottom of the WH. I am highly skeptical due to the already mentioned fact that minerals are not ferromagnetic.

One company around here advertises that they will pay your sales tax...a $250 savings. That would make the system about $3,000. It is supposed to soften your water and make it taste better. "Maintenance Free" and if you move, unplug it and take it with you!!!


I can tell you that nuclear submarines still use an Ion Exchange Resin Demineralizer for the pure water needed for the steam generators. If there was a better way, money would be no object and they would have it.

Hi I was looking up Electromagnetic water softeners for my daughters and up came your NG. So I joined it just to get on this post.
I am an industrial designer and at design elevators.
wikipedia has me at their site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cali

I don't sell these Electormagnetic softeners, but I can say the one I have works. Yes it is the LED Disco Flashing light one. It cost me $140 25 years ago from Habour Freight. I noticed it is the same price today.

We just moved into our a Bi level ranch in Rockland County NY and water was very hard. My wife is a Physical therapist and has lots of things to wash each day. Nothing would come clean and we were getting dry peeling skin and dandruff. Also the Stainless and chrome was white stained with hard white deposits. Our plumber said we needed a water softer. My wife said she would rather leave it alone then add anything to the water system (she also don't eat meat, ha)!

So I saw the ad for the Clearwave and asked questions. I work for the largest Elevator Company in the U.S. ( Not OTIS ) ThyssenKrupp. 40% of the steel in all cars is Thyssen Steel. I called the plant engineers and they said they use a monster unit for the paint plant and it works.
So I bought it. Also called the manufacture and spoke to the engineers.
THe guy said it is a slow process but it will make the soap work and you will feel the difference instantly. It will also desolve the hard formations after a month or so. All worked exactly as he said. The white deposits just wash away!! He said if you test the water it will look the same but the stuff in teh water will not stick and will pass out the system. He mentioned it changed the composition of the deposits to what is in Pearls?? Also when I had my water heater changed for the 3rd time over the 25 year period we noticed the pipes were clean unlike the first time we removed it.
I actually forgot it was there, till my daughter needed a water softener. The Red lights are still flashing. It is a small unit you tie wrap on the main in - pipe then you have to wrap two sets of wires in opposite directions around the pipe. It took about 5 minutes.
After 25 years I figure I saved about 10 grand and the hassle of deliveries and the room the units take up.
Maybe if my water was harder it would not have worked as good, but now knowing what I know, I would just spend more money on a better unit and they do have them.
Joe Cali
www.nextgen-usa.com
That is my Porsche engine to VW bug and Cali-deco pen site.

Nextgen,
Reverend Zombie thanks you for your purchase and testimonial

Ha, I see I wandered onto a NG that makes money selling old technology and people just keep sucking it up.

Well once people find out they don't need all that Chemical Water Softener crap your sales will go the way of film Cameras, Tube TVs and buggy whips and real fast.

I know you can't be that unknowledgeable about the new technology and without your fellow Plumbers knowing are working on selling the Electro stuff before the next guy.

I don't sell it I don't care, just thought I would be a nice guy and give an honest testimonial to someone that did care.

25 freaking years guys IT WORKS!!!!!!

Good God...


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