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Thread: electromagnetic water softener (descaler)

  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herk View Post
    If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.
    I met the guys who bought the London Bridge They were wheeling and dealing in Baja at the time.
    They thought they wre buying the Tower Bridge...

    The people selling these water softeners should also sell the magnets that double your gas millage.

    A simple solution for them would be to submit to Rand's challenge and come out $1,000,000.00 richer.

  2. #47

    Default Just look at the Science

    Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.

    The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.

    The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.

    What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.
    And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.

    For those naysayers out there

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFromHC View Post
    I met the guys who bought the London Bridge They were wheeling and dealing in Baja at the time.
    They thought they wre buying the Tower Bridge...

    The people selling these water softeners should also sell the magnets that double your gas millage.

    A simple solution for them would be to submit to Rand's challenge and come out $1,000,000.00 richer.
    just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.

    And for this guy:

    Quote Originally Posted by Herk View Post
    If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.
    look up magnetohydrodynamics, it'll tell ya all about it why it COULD and DOES work.
    Last edited by TheGreatAus; 02-14-2009 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #48
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.

    The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.

    The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.

    What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.
    And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.

    For those naysayers out there



    just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.

    And for this guy:



    look up magnetohydrodynamics, it'll tell ya all about it why it COULD and DOES work.


    Um, no. What you're studying in a controlled lab test against real world symantics, are two entirely different realms of thinking.

    There's so much hocus pocus to the belief that you can hook a magnet to a water line is because everybody including the senior citizen on welfare on the second floor above a chinese voodoo shop has the ability to sell something that promises effective use, but once that sale is done and over with, it's someone elses bag to carry.

    Since you're highly intelligent on these matters, I would like you to contact the makers of such products and offer a 30 day trial offer on all of these products, no credit card needed, no shipping charges, no NOTHING. Just send the product and let it be used to see if there's really any truth to the product.


    Best way to prove this theory, is to plant these products out there like some of them are placebos...so the talent of knowing if it is a mental state of being or a true physical one with results, just like the fancy websites promise.

    Of course, if you're so sure of your own product, this should be an ample opportunity to "step up to the plate" and let us, the unknowing bunch to see firsthand what the truth is about these products.

    We've subjected a few people that have come here speaking on behalf of their product, and when they get cornered with asking for specific information...

    they tend to disappear and never come back. Are we harsh? I don't think so. I think we as a cautious bunch could be made believers overnight if what you say and what it does are the exact same thing.

    But up to this point, and your one solo posting, nothing has changed here on the reality front.

    I'm asking you, TheGreatAus, to forever change my life and my way of thinking about these quick methods of making my water do things never thought imaginable beyond my wildest dreams, envisioning myself in a foreign land enjoying tea, sitting in a tub that provides me the softest water imaginable.

    Please tell me you found me on the internet, to rescue me, once and for all from the horrid and devastating hard water that affects me deeply.


    I want to believe, just like you...

  4. #49
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    The very few water heaters that I have changed out over the years, that had earth magnets or electric field type from wire wrapping hooked up to the incoming water line, still had a ton of lime, Ect. in the bottom and that...in my NSHO...had led to the premature failure of the heater...sooooo....now what....

  5. #50
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    Let's assume that it does if fact actually keep the minerals in solution so that they do not "plate" the piping. The major reason for softening water is to remove the deposits from the end use, I.E. what comes out the faucet. What comes out the faucet is still hard water. However, those that wish to lay out a couple grand for a couple 10 dollar magnets are certainly free to do so.

  6. #51
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.
    As a PhD student, you should work a little more on your critical thinking skills. Has any of your research turned up any research papers that have been peer reviewed? Have you conducted any empirical testing of your own under controlled conditions? Perhaps you can work this research and testing into your quest for your PhD.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.
    I have a few problems with that link that you provided. If anybody wants to check it out, I suggest that they skip to pages 9 and 10. The suggested applications are for boilers and cooling towers. Also, these require a method to filter out precipitate or you will have precipitate flowing through your water system. Having presipitates flowing through your water system can be bad. I'm sure the plumbers here have changed their share of leaky seats that were probably scratched by some solid that made its way through the water system. I like the part on page 10 on what to avoid. They state, "This technology is littered with disreputable manufacturers." Also, the application noted here is for scale management. Do they discuss any of the other aspects as to why people install residential water softeners?

    The biggest problem I have with this document is that it has been retired by FEMP and is no longer available through FEMP period. They went so far as to pull it down from the web site, "At the direction of the program's Interlaboratory Council ... FEMP has retired the following publications." Why was that document retired? So, who is it that is hosting that document now? Looks like a snake oil peddler to me.

    Look at the results you can get with one of their magnetic water softeners.

    Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.
    This one might be legit. No shortcuts with this one like clamping some device to your pipes. It requires a real installation and water must flow through it and it involves filters. This company also sells reverse osmosis systems as well. The statement above about "keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution", isn't that the definition of hard water? Minerals in solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.
    The bashing comes easy when one of the devices being discussed here is from a snake oil peddler and that the device was tested by Consumer Reports and was shown not to work. Perhaps there are some of these systems that work, but the problem is that the reputation is being tarnished my the multitude of snake oil peddlers that are out there selling these sort of devices that either do not work or not applied appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.
    Apples to oranges. What about MRIs proves that electromagnetic water softeners work?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    For those naysayers out there

    just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.
    What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Hey, time travel is not yet possible, so I guess that is proof that these things do not work?

    While you might be an honest person trying to do some research, citing links to a snake oil web site gives the impression that you might be a shill for one of these peddlers.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH View Post
    Hey, time travel is not yet possible, .......

    All that is lacking for that is the necessary 21.21 GigaVolts!



    In all this discussion, has anyone, or CAN anyone , point to any military or industrial process where this magnetic technology is being used to demineralize their process water?, as a replacement for resin ion exchange?


    If it works, then the price will either come down to earth, or no one will buy it. Solar electric panels for your roof do work well, and the payback period on the investment is longer than the life expectancy of the house. That is why only AlGore and Ed Begley are rushing to embrace this technology right now. You can replace a 60 watt bulb with about a 5 watt LED, but that bulb costs $115! I'll wait!

  8. #53
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    I figured it out folks!

    He left an N out of his username!

    Don't tell me you didn't think the same either!!!

    You did!!



    Wow! Look at the size of that lemon! I gots to have one!

  9. #54

    Smile

    The only real intelligible response to peoples posts is Carl H.'s. And I thank you for that. I can assure you Im a poor graduate student in Salt Lake City that is looking for a way try and eliminate the hard water in my small condo, not a salesman for these 'snake-oil peddlers', just someone wanting to know about this intriguing topic. I dont have the room in my condo for a typical chemical treatment method, so I typed in 'small water softeners' and found a variety of softeners, some of which were the electromagnetic softeners. I eventually found this thread (I know Im repeating myself, but you all apparently are skeptics of my own validity) and wanted to shed light on the topic, as I am as much a skeptic as I am a believer. I had a hard time finding much of anything on non-chemical methods of water 'purifying' (as its not purifying, but rather a method to control scaling, some of you are having a hard time understanding this (see the quote right below)), so I am still somewhat in the dark on specific examples and good science ON those examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    In all this discussion, has anyone, or CAN anyone , point to any military or industrial process where this magnetic technology is being used to demineralize their process water?, as a replacement for resin ion exchange?
    So the answer to your question is no, because its not what it does.


    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    There's so much hocus pocus to the belief that you can hook a magnet to a water line is because everybody including the senior citizen on welfare on the second floor above a chinese voodoo

    Since you're highly intelligent on these matters, I would like you to contact the makers of such products

    I want to believe, just like you...
    I dont believe, Im a scientist, Im trying to understand. And I have sent emails to the manufacturers listed in the DOE link that was in Carls and my own post trying to get some information on their products. I sent them last night, so probably wont hear from them atleast until Monday.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlH View Post
    As a PhD student, you should work a little more on your critical thinking skills. Have you conducted any empirical testing of your own under controlled conditions?

    This one might be legit. No shortcuts with this one like clamping some device to your pipes.

    What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Hey, time travel is not yet possible, so I guess that is proof that these things do not work?
    I disagree on my critical thinking, I have thought a lot on this and am looking for 'experts' on the subject and done literature searches on my own, and have come to no conclusion on the topic, other than it seems you have to have a strong magnet in order to get any real effect. I have not conducted any experiments on this, Im an organometallic chemist and dont have the equipment to perform them, or I probably would. But it is a good suggestion for a general experiment for a collaberation with a civil engineer.

    And as far as the last part of the quote, what my allegory was illustrating was that people shouldnt speak too soon, not time travel. If there is good science behind it, it IS legitimate (like evolution, for another example). However, the ONLY good science was in the link of a company selling their own product, however, to their benefit, did reference data collected by outside sources.

    And the MRI reference was to illustrate that magnets DO in fact have an influence on water. However, understanding how MRI's work, I still am searching as to exactly HOW the magnetic field would change the surface tension of room temperature water to that of boiling water (the physical property change magnets have on water that some of the links eluded too), which is really quite fascinating.


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Solar electric panels for your roof do work well, and the payback period on the investment is longer than the life expectancy of the house.
    Have faith in your countries scientists: http://www.mrl.ucsb.edu/mrl/faculty/heeger.html . He's invented cheap thin film solar cells that have some of the best solar conversions yet, something that Wal-mart is considering putting on some of their buildings as an experiment to lessen their own daily operating costs, something I wish all companies would do.

  10. #55

    Default What???

    Quote Originally Posted by RUGGED View Post
    I figured it out folks!

    He left an N out of his username!

    Don't tell me you didn't think the same either!!!

    You did!!



    Wow! Look at the size of that lemon! I gots to have one!
    I dont get this at all....way to contribute though.

  11. #56
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    Im a poor graduate student in Salt Lake City that is looking for a way try and eliminate the hard water in my small condo, not a salesman for these 'snake-oil peddlers', just someone wanting to know about this intriguing topic. I dont have the room in my condo for a typical chemical treatment method, so I typed in 'small water softeners' and found a variety of softeners, some of which were the electromagnetic softeners.
    I did a search on that Santa Clarita Water Conditioning company and came up with a couple of discussions. One of them mentioned a small reverse osmosis units that might fit under a sink. The problem with the reverse osmosis is that the water they take in is greater than the water they output. At the moment, I don't remember what they said about the Sanat Clarita units. Mind you that I know very little about water softeners and don't own one.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    I eventually found this thread (I know Im repeating myself, but you all apparently are skeptics of my own validity) and wanted to shed light on the topic, as I am as much a skeptic as I am a believer. I had a hard time finding much of anything on non-chemical methods of water 'purifying' (as its not purifying, but rather a method to control scaling, some of you are having a hard time understanding this (see the quote right below)), so I am still somewhat in the dark on specific examples and good science ON those examples.
    The problem is that it appeared as though you might be one of those one post wonders and that it looked like you might be supporting or promoting these units.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    I dont believe, Im a scientist, Im trying to understand. And I have sent emails to the manufacturers listed in the DOE link that was in Carls and my own post trying to get some information on their products. I sent them last night, so probably wont hear from them atleast until Monday.
    They might give you some information, but they are unlikely to have something that fits your needs since they appear to do this on an industrial scale. Good luck in getting information, you might find it difficult getting to the right person.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    I disagree on my critical thinking,
    Just pickin' at you for providing a link on a snake oil web site. I'm not sure if you knew what else was on that web site.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    And the MRI reference was to illustrate that magnets DO in fact have an influence on water. However, understanding how MRI's work, I still am searching as to exactly HOW the magnetic field would change the surface tension of room temperature water to that of boiling water (the physical property change magnets have on water that some of the links eluded too), which is really quite fascinating.
    The problem is that it adds noise to the discussion since there is no direct correlation between an MRI and the effectiveness of a water softener.

    Assuming that there are some of these units that work and are suitable for a residential application, the problem is that there are a number of disreputable companies selling equipment that is supposed to be using this technology to be equivalent to the chemical water softeners. This has muddied the waters and might make it difficult for you to get accurate information on the subject.

  12. #57
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatAus View Post
    I dont get this at all....way to contribute though.



    Tongue n Cheek my friend! You are far greater than me on this subject, CarlH is better suited for this duel!



    Just remember that I am the hands and eyes that witness the many spent dollars on this idea that promises everything, and delivers nothing.


    That's an expert witness testimony to all the fallen victims called homeowners.

    If you have something credible, you are facing an uphill battle with the reputation these devices currently posess.

    But then again, they still sell these damn things.

  13. #58
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    All we need now is our 2 self appointed tankless water heater experts Greg Sauls and Laddy Boy to show up lending their water conditioning knowledge to this discussion...

    TheGreatAus,
    Perhaps you should move on past the graduate program at the Pleasant Grove Community College and enter the real world. Read at these 2 links below and learn... You will see that you don't have to always be poor. From these 2 links you may become rich in knowledge and it will save you from wasting your precious money on voodoo water softeners...

    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

    http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

  14. #59
    DIY Senior Member CarlH's Avatar
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    Those two links are the best that I have seen on this topic. Good find. On the other hand, I have not tried to dig up much of anything on the subject. The DOE document mentioned previously that was retired by FEMP is covered at that site and why it was retired.

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