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Thread: Wiring a Spa. Do I use #8 awg or 6/3 romex slimpull ?

  1. #31

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    I found this inexpensive Rainproof 2-4 circuit nonmetallic(plastic) 125amp box for $18. Any advice on this?
    Are the 2/30 and 2/20 GE GFCI breakers you need available? How much??

  2. #32
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH View Post
    You can't run the NM wires outside in conduit of any kind. You will have to use THWN or some other kind of wire that is rated for wet locations. You will usually find that wire rated for THHN also rated as THWN.

    The wire you need is #6 for the hot conductors (#8 will actually handle 50 Amps), and #8 for the white and ground. Those will fit in a 3/4" rigid or flex conduit. You may need the 1" if they are all #6.

    The load calculations would let you run smaller wires (THWN) but the inspector on a recent project that I did required the larger wires.

    Rigid PVC is easy to run and it is easy to pull if you use lubricant. You can connect flex to the end using a adapters and pull the wire through both at once.

    Bob, If I run nm thru the attic and out the soffit down 5 feet to a sub panel, Do I still need to run THWN wire for the exterior 5 feet pre-sub portion?
    If so where will I splice down to Thwn?
    I know post sub panel I will have to run THWN to the circuit board.

  3. #33
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Are the 2/30 and 2/20 GE GFCI breakers you need available? How much??
    I just assumed they would be available but never checked on that yet, not to mention the price. I usually never have trouble locating things here in the city . I'll let you know tommorow.

  4. #34
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bender View Post
    Bob, If I run nm thru the attic and out the soffit down 5 feet to a sub panel, Do I still need to run THWN wire for the exterior 5 feet pre-sub portion?
    If so where will I splice down to Thwn?
    I know post sub panel I will have to run THWN to the circuit board.
    I was remarking relative to the comment by RickD7 about burying the conduit 18", without noticing that it wasn't you.

    My comment about not using NM is related to the requirement that NM can't be used in any location that is classified as "wet" by the code.

    If you have to change wire types you would have to splice it in a box somewhere. I don't believe that a conduit fitting has enough volume to meet the code requirements for a junction box.

  5. #35
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH View Post
    I was remarking relative to the comment by RickD7 about burying the conduit 18", without noticing that it wasn't you.

    My comment about not using NM is related to the requirement that NM can't be used in any location that is classified as "wet" by the code.

    If you have to change wire types you would have to splice it in a box somewhere. I don't believe that a conduit fitting has enough volume to meet the code requirements for a junction box.
    Oh ok ,I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel.

  6. #36

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    I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel
    You can sleeve that portion of the NM. It is an exception somewhere in the code (anybody???). It is basically the same thing they do for rooftop AC units.

  7. #37

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    3/4 sealtight or PVC 40 will take 4 #6 THHN wires. You could strip the sheathing and run the 6-3wG in 3/4 conduit.

  8. #38
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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    Ok
    I like you guys to look at this and give me your expert opinions.
    The diagram shows the neutral and ground on different bars. If you look at the sub I have here, there is only one bar. I bought a spare bar to install but I would like to consult with you all first. Let me know what you all think.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #39
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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  10. #40
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    Talking

    oops the pic may be too small.


    Obviously I decided to go with a metal panel.
    Last edited by nail bender; 11-04-2007 at 05:17 PM. Reason: addition

  11. #41
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bender View Post
    Oh ok ,I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel.
    This is a code violation
    Quote Originally Posted by ked View Post
    3/4 sealtight or PVC 40 will take 4 #6 THHN wires. You could strip the sheathing and run the 6-3wG in 3/4 conduit.
    This is a worse code violation.
    310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall be
    (1) Moisture-impervious metal-sheathed;
    (2) Types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THHW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW; or
    (3) Of a type listed for use in wet locations.




    The flex in the PVC is a code violation

  12. #42

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    Can you cite the violation?

    I am SURE you are allowed to sleeve NM. It is done every day on roof top AC units and to protect short pieces go to eave lights etc.



    Tell me you didn't run that pvc down and loop it into the bottom? That SCREAMS homo(wner) !! It works and everything but it is u g l y.

    If you don't have a hole saw at LEAST use an LB/chase nipple into the side.

    I don't know if I WANT to see it exiting from the gable/eave

  13. #43
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Can you cite the violation?
    334.12 But you will need a code book to read it
    Last edited by jwelectric; 11-05-2007 at 07:18 AM.

  14. #44
    DIY Junior Member nail bender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Can you cite the violation?

    I am SURE you are allowed to sleeve NM. It is done every day on roof top AC units and to protect short pieces go to eave lights etc.



    Tell me you didn't run that pvc down and loop it into the bottom? That SCREAMS homo(wner) !! It works and everything but it is u g l y.

    If you don't have a hole saw at LEAST use an LB/chase nipple into the side.

    I don't know if I WANT to see it exiting from the gable/eave
    Yea I don't have a hole saw .What is a LB/Chase nipple and what does it look like?

    As far as the pvc/flex joint. What is a better way of getting it under the sub or is there an adpter to fit it in the main on top that is appx. 2 1/2" wide?
    Yea I wouldn't want the work to be obvious that a "homo(wner)" did it himself. : )
    by the way the pvc goes thru the eave where it meets the wall.

  15. #45
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bender View Post
    Yea I wouldn't want the work to be obvious that a "homo(wner)" did it himself. : )
    by the way the pvc goes thru the eave where it meets the wall.
    You have several issues with the installation.
    First and foremost NM cable can not be installed outside even if it is in a raceway.
    334.12(B)(4)Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness

    The transition from PVC to flex needs to be done using the proper fittings
    356.42 Couplings and Connectors.
    Only fittings listed for use with LFNC shall be used. Angle connectors shall not be used for concealed raceway installations. Straight LFNC fittings are permitted for direct burial or encasement in concrete.
    Although the flex fits into the PVC the coupling that is part of the PVC is listed for use on PVC only.

    Both the PVC and the flex needs to be supported
    356.30 Securing and Supporting.
    Type LFNC-B shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with one of the following:
    Where installed in lengths exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft), the conduit shall be securely fastened at intervals not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) on each side of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

    352.30 Securing and Supporting.
    RNC shall be installed as a complete system as provided in 300.18 and shall be fastened so that movement from thermal expansion or contraction is permitted. RNC shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with 352.30(A) and (B).
    Securely Fastened. RNC shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, conduit body, or other conduit termination. Conduit listed for securing at other than 900 mm (3 ft) shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the listing.

    The panel will require an equipment grounding terminal bar for the equipment grounding conductors to land on that is also bonded to the panel itself.
    250.96 Bonding Other Enclosures.
    (A) General. Metal raceways, cable trays, cable armor, cable sheath, enclosures, frames, fittings, and other metal non–current-carrying parts that are to serve as grounding conductors, with or without the use of supplementary equipment grounding conductors, shall be effectively bonded where necessary to ensure electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on them. Any nonconductive paint, enamel, or similar coating shall be removed at threads, contact points, and contact surfaces or be connected by means of fittings designed so as to make such removal unnecessary.

    The grounded (neutral) must not be connected to the enclosure or the equipment grounding conductor terminal
    250.142(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B), a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.


    Also the use on NM cable for this installation can be used for this part of the installation
    (C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

    Once the conductors leave the interior of the dwelling
    680.25(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
    (1) Size. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 but not smaller than 8 AWG.

    The art of electrical installations involve a lot more than twisting wires together.

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