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Thread: perm. removed light. what do i do with wires?

  1. #16

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    okay so are you saying i shouldn't stagger cut the wires and tightly wrap tape SEVERAL layers around until i have completely isulated the wires??

    once again please remember there is either no box or because it's behind the wall i just cannot see it. the two small wires that were attached to light fixture just come through a quarter-size hole in the wall. this fixture, btw, was on a wall about 12 feet up in a room with a vaulted ceiling.

    i am going to check to see if there is a box behind the hole.
    Last edited by nothingeverworks; 10-30-2007 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothingeverworks View Post
    i am going to check to see if there is a box behind the hole.
    300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings ó Where Required.
    A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
    Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
    Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).

    There is nothing found in (A) through (M) that would allow the installation of tape on the end of the conductor.

    It is a good idea to,

    314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.
    Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.

  3. #18
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Speaking as a remodeller... when I see a cut end, I assume "dead wire".

    Because THAT'S CODE.

    And also because, THAT'S WHAT'S NORMAL. Even the hacks don't leave a live wire hanging loose in the wall.


    ...You could kill somebody with that staggered cut trick.
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  4. #19

    Default Keep it simple!!!!!!!

    If there is no box to terminate the wires you must find the source and disconnect the wires and wire cap them on the hot end. You cannot leave connected live wires loose behind a wall! END OF CONVERSATION

  5. #20
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    And if there is a box, it must remain accessible.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
    manly smell of WD 40 in the air
    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
    __________________
    Just so everyone's clear: I'm the POODLE in the picture ("french", get it?) The hot woman is my wife.

  6. #21

    Default good point

    Good point Frenchie!

  7. #22

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    Not only is it bad, dangerous, illegal advice - but it sounds like the OP is going to take that advice?
    Explain how it is bad/dangerous. We are NOT talking about splices/junctions here, we are talking about a dead end. If you equal the insulation of the sheathing it is as safe as the rest of the run.




    Speaking as a remodeller... when I see a cut end, I assume "dead wire".
    You are TRYING to tell me that if you saw a piece of romex in a wall/ceiling/attic with tape insulating the dead end, you would "assume it's hot"?

    Get serious.

    When I see a wire, unless it's on a spool, I assume it's hot.

    You cannot leave connected live wires loose behind a wall! END OF CONVERSATION
    Conversation resuming:

    There are connected live wires running throughout the house. They are covered with sheathing, it's called romex. Are you telling me that I can't insulate the end of a wire as well as the sheathing?

    If done properly, taping the end of a cut nm is safe, no matter what the code says.

    I am always open minded though so if someone give me a good reason why it's unsafe, I'm all ears.

    I don't use the NEC as a bible, I use it as a reference. I feel that I am capable of deciding what is safe/unsafe. There are a few things that I flat out ignore (taping off dead end unused wiring) and there are other things that, even though ALLOWED by code, I would NEVER do (ie: exposed cable/SE).

    Again, give me a good reason to change my ways. I'm alll ears.
    Last edited by Alectrician; 10-31-2007 at 09:45 PM.

  8. #23
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Explain how it is bad/dangerous. We are NOT talking about splices/junctions here, we are talking about a dead end. If you equal the insulation of the sheathing it is as safe as the rest of the run.
    Safe in one persons mind is dangerous in other persons mind.
    The NEC is a minimum SAFETY standard. The introduction to the code itself states this.
    90.1 Purpose.
    (A) Practical Safeguarding
    . The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
    (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

    Doing anything less that the requirements of the code will result in an installation that is NOT SAFE
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    You are TRYING to tell me that if you saw a piece of romex in a wall/ceiling/attic with tape insulating the dead end, you would "assume it's hot"?
    If I saw a piece of Non Metallic Cable anywhere that was taped on the end I would try to find out who made the installation and report them to the proper authorities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    There are connected live wires running throughout the house. They are covered with sheathing, it's called romex. Are you telling me that I can't insulate the end of a wire as well as the sheathing?
    Get real here. Cables that are installed with a nonmetallic sheathing is not necessarily Romex. The might be any one of a number of nonmetallic cable manufactures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    If done properly, taping the end of a cut nm is safe, no matter what the code says.
    This is a mind set or would it be better to say opinion.
    If done properly it would still be a violation of the NEC and if it is a violation of the NEC it canít be safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    I am always open minded though so if someone give me a good reason why it's unsafe, I'm all ears.
    All you have to do is look at here

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    I don't use the NEC as a bible, I use it as a reference. I feel that I am capable of deciding what is safe/unsafe. There are a few things that I flat out ignore (taping off dead end unused wiring) and there are other things that, even though ALLOWED by code, I would NEVER do (ie: exposed cable/SE).
    Well my friend if you are doing work in a jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC or the IRC then the code is the LAW not something that you can choose to use or not.
    As a side note I will point out that there are hundred of thousands of people in this nation that think that their idea of safety is far superior to those who spend their careers writing the codes and safety manuals. These same people have either filed on some insurance or are a ward of the state and the law abiding tax payers are supporting these self made safety experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Again, give me a good reason to change my ways. I'm alll ears.
    Again all you have to do is look at here

  9. #24

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    Cables that are installed with a nonmetallic sheathing is not necessarily Romex. The might be any one of a number of nonmetallic cable manufactures

    No sh.t Einstein. I can just picture you on a job saying that when someone asks for some romex.


    If I saw a piece of Non Metallic Cable anywhere that was taped on the end I would try to find out who made the installation and report them to the proper authorities.
    Then you have some serious issues.



    if it is a violation of the NEC it can’t be safe.

    Sorry but that is just not true.

    Is pvc buried at 17.75 inches unsafe?

    Is screwing inside a plastic box to a stud unsafe?

    Is stapling romex...yeah that's right, I called it romex..12" from a box unsafe?

    How many times have you violated code but in your opinion it was safe?

    Never?......Riiiiight




    What I was asking for is a reasonable explanation of WHY it is unsafe. Because the bible says so aint good enough for me.
    Last edited by Alectrician; 11-01-2007 at 02:08 PM.

  10. #25
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    No sh.t Einstein. I can just picture you on a job saying that when someone asks for some romex.
    Well if someone on the job ask me for some Romex I always take the time to give them a little education in Article 334 of the National Electrical Code.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Then you have some serious issues.
    Issues or not anyone that would tape the end of an energized wire and leave in hanging free needs to be fined to the max.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Sorry but that is just not true.
    So now you are saying that your opinion out weighs the opinion of those who make the proposals and those who write the codes which are a minimum safety standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Is pvc buried at 17.75 inches unsafe?
    yes and also a code violation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Is screwing inside a plastic box to a stud unsafe?
    Nor is it a code violation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    Is stapling romex...yeah that's right, I called it romex..12" from a box unsafe?
    Nor is it a code violation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    How many times have you violated code but in your opinion it was safe?

    Never?......Riiiiight
    Never
    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    What I was asking for is a reasonable explanation of WHY it is unsafe. Because the bible says so aint good enough for me.
    I donít think that the Bible has anything to do with an electrical installation. If you were referring to the NEC then if it is adopted in your area then I suppose that the law would not be good enough for you either

  11. #26

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    Well if someone on the job ask me for some Romex I always take the time to give them a little education in Article 334 of the National Electrical Code.
    Heh heh. Why does that not surprise me. How much time do you spend each day trying to teach people that cola is not coke and facial tissue is not kleenex? I'm sure that no one is impressed.


    Issues or not anyone that would tape the end of an energized wire and leave in hanging free needs to be fined to the max.
    Once again, please explain the scenario where this would be dangerous. I honestly want to learn. I am NOT afraid to change my methods but all I've heard so far is blah blah blah.


    So now you are saying that your opinion out weighs the opinion of those who make the proposals and those who write the codes which are a minimum safety standard.
    I'm no rocket surgeon but in some cases, yes.

  12. #27
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician View Post
    I'm no rocket surgeon but in some cases, yes.
    Then to try and get you to see that the NEC is a minimum safety standard and to do anything less than what it requires would be unsafe would be futile.
    You are already smarter than the rest of the world so you just keep hacking away until caught.
    With the utter most of respect I think that you should not be giving your opinion to people that do not have knowledge of the codes instead of giving the code requirements and standing back asking for someone to explain why your idea is not as safe as what that is required by the code.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    You are already smarter than the rest of the world so you just keep hacking away until caught.
    .

    You personality makes it difficult for you to think dimensionally. I would never EVER suggest that I am smarter than EVERYBODY. Hell, I BARELY made it through high school and most of the code book makes me scratch my head and go "huh?"

    This doesn't mean that I am not better qualified than someone on a particular subject. I run across thing almost every single day that make me shake my head. Engineers and brainiacs get paid BIG dollars to design things and they aren't smart enough to actually see if it will work in the field. You HAVE to know what I'm talking about.

    With the utter most of respect I think that you should not be giving your opinion to people that do not have knowledge of the codes instead of giving the code requirements and standing back asking for someone to explain why your idea is not as safe as what that is required by the code
    You are a teacher and I barely finished high school, but for your future reference, I am pretty sure it's "utmost repect".


    In turn, I think you should be able to explain "why" instead of just repeating "That's what the code says". I am an intellect and I feel the need to know why. I am also never afraid to make a decision for myself.


    PS. In the future, referring to me as a hack will only make you look more stupid. I do OK.

    Also, Im still waiting for an explanation from ANYONE why my method is unsafe.

  14. #29
    Electrician sjcrawley's Avatar
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    OK keep coming back to this thread its like seeing road kill. Where are the moderators. pls close this thread. turning into a petty fight and not very professional. (just my 2 cents)
    the more I learn the more I realise i dont know squat!

  15. #30

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    I don't think I'll EVER understand this train of thought.

    You are saying "I don't like it, therefore it should not exist". Don't you see the problem with that?

    Do you walk into a conversation in real life and tell the people they can't continue? I doubt it.

    Why are people so afraid of discussion? It is generally good for society. If it bothers you, don't participate.



    You know, you don't HAVE to read it but someone else might want to.

    It's simple really. If NO ONE wants to participate, it goes away.

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