I've been insulted

[speedbump]

Prejudge all you like Bob but you've got it wrong if you think a licensed tech is always going to do a better job. I've been building stuff in industry for more than 30 years so I know quite well what I can and can't do.

I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds good.

Never mind speedbump. He makes Oscar the grouch look like a Pollyanna.

How about that, I must have struck a few nerves. That was my intention.

You can't expect to buy the product at wholesale prices, ask questions of tradesmen, tell them you can do it better, brag about your college degrees that the idiot counter man or the tradesmen don't have and expect to be treated like a Prince.

bob...

[hj]

The Big Box stores are getting some of their customers for commodity items.

And the customers are
1. installing them,
2. removing them because they are defective,
3. returning them to the big box,
4. checking the new one,
5. going back home,
6. reinstalling it,
7. and then bragging about how much money they "saved" by DIYing it.

If they bought it and had it installed by a professional, then doing steps #2 through #6, will create additional charges for labor while waiting for it to happen or coming back a second time.

[speedbump]

If they bought it and had it installed by a professional, then doing steps #2 through #6, will create additional charges for labor while waiting for it to happen or coming back a second time.

They won't have to do it all over again in 1.5 to 3 years either if it's a quality item installed by a pro.

bob...

[CHH]

I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds good.

Well try to think it through. You made a blanket statement that the licensed tech will always do a better job. I pointed out that it isn't true and gave a basis for the statement. If you insist on failing to understand, well that is fine by me. If you want to continue to make snide comments then be prepared for return fire.

How about that, I must have struck a few nerves. That was my intention.

What goes around comes around bubba.

[frenchie]

I'm late to this, but a couple of points:

- when homeowners DIY an HVAC system, do the CFC's get captured, or just released into the atmosphere?

Sounds like a minor point, but there's a bunch of similar issues where not having the proper equipment and/or not having specialized knowledge = the creation of polluting, unsafe or unhealthy conditions for the homeowner, or their neighbours, or all of us: other examples include the removing of asbestos tiles; srtipping lead paint; notching-out house framing w/o understanding load paths... etc.

On the other hand, clearly nobody here objects to DIYing; else we wouldn't hang out on this forum, would we?


- as far as "Doggone it, I have a degree in mechanical engineering, plus a master's in engineering science. I doubt if he has any degree, except maybe snobbery" goes...

You'd be surprised how many tradesmen & contractors have degrees. A lot of us started out doing something completely different, then got into the trades because the corporate world, or the social work environment, or academia, was too stifling & boring.

And you may not have said anything to the guy - but I find people with that sort of attitude, tend to project it very clearly; even if/when they aren't aware they're doing it. You might want to check yourself.

[speedbump]

If you want to continue to make snide comments then be prepared for return fire.

I think I have made my point, and if you want to just point your gun at me that's fine too. I can take it. But as far as attitude goes, I think the consensus is clear.

bob...

[Wet_Boots]

(can we work some fiberglass lopper handles into this thread?)

[jjamison]

This has been a very interesting thread. Where knowledge comes from (epistemology), who has it, and who gets to keep it makes for a good discussion. My thought is that “guild” control over information is coming to a close whether they be trade guilds or design/engineering guilds. The internet is making all the difference. The young folks out there will be talking to experts with all sorts of hats on and will be much less likely to discriminate based on traditional roles and perceptions of who should be doing what and who is good at what. It will be a results based intellectual economy with a free flow of information driving it (hopefully with some good empiricism at its core). Individual human beings are extremely susceptible to making cognitive errors based upon their own experiences. Just look at the world around us what unusual ideas people have about what works and doesn’t work (I found the thread about discharging a firearm into a well particularly entertaining). Alternately, engineers often have so little field experience their suggestions may have little practical application. Any individual claiming to have “specialized” knowledge or abilities based upon individual experience, licensure, or academic degrees will be regarded with some skepticism. That is not to say that gatekeeping and accrediting bodies will not continue to serve a purpose in vetting specialists and protecting broader public health concerns, but I am saying that those claiming to have “special knowledge or abilities” that they will not or can not share, won’t have the place in society that they used to. I do believe that manual dexterity, practice, skill, and field experience will be valued, but the “professionals” and “engineers” are going to find they can no longer hide behind alchemical symbols and technical jargon of yesteryear. The curtain has been parted and this thread is a part of the story.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I got shot down at a electrical supply a couple weeks ago asking for "privileged info" regarding a transformer.

Apparently they'll talk to me when I'm there spending money but before I left I started asking technical info and it was like they zipped their mouths shut.

I couldn't voice my opinion on the matter too much as I might need them for additional products in the future but I sensed the vibe that if you're not a electrician.....pay somebody to figure it out for yourself.

I'm glad I don't act that way with my plumbing knowledge to others. I share it quite often but not in the respect that costs me money or otherwise.

[CHH]

. But as far as attitude goes, I think the consensus is clear.

What consensus? Folks have posted on both sides and in the middle. You wouldn't be making things up now, would you? tsk, tsk

[frenchie]

Rugged - there's a basic, essential difference between a supply house and a retailer, though; between serving the general public, and serving the trades. They're different markets, with different needs.

I don't need, want, or want to pay for my supplier to give me advice - but I do need them to get my order right when I phone it in; to have my stuff ready when I show up; and for my deliveries arrive when they told me it would.

Also, come to think of it... I don't care if they're polite. We're not socializing, we're working. There's generally not a lot of chit-chat involved, the idea is to conduct the transaction as efficiently as possible, because every minute I spend there, is a minute away from whatever project I'm working on.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I agree that chit-chat is not what they get paid for......but the freaking supply house was empty, completely empty of customers and I was the only guy around.

Not a waiting line for other customers to come in the door either.

I'd say they should respect the guy with the credit card willing to spend a little better. And I'm a repeat customer from all the years being around!!

[speedbump]

When I used to deal with supply companies, I found that the people behind the counter rarely had any actual experience with the items they were selling. These were counter guys who's job and expertise was in filling orders. Knowing what model number belonged to which item was what set them apart from myself. I never asked a counter man for help with the installation of the items I was buying. That was my job.

If a homeowner were to walk in and find a counter man who wasn't busy and willing to answer questions. He might be getting a lot of bad information.

bob...

[Bob NH]

Alternately, engineers often have so little field experience their suggestions may have little practical application. . . . I do believe that manual dexterity, practice, skill, and field experience will be valued, but the “professionals” and “engineers” are going to find they can no longer hide behind alchemical symbols and technical jargon of yesteryear. The curtain has been parted and this thread is a part of the story.

Everyone likes to take a swipe at engineers.

The essence of engineering is not to be able to do a job better than someone has done it before. That is the province of people who have developed skills and experience to do it efficiently and correctly.

The process of engineering is to apply knowledge and experience to do a job that has not been done before.

After nearly 50 years as an engineer there are few things that I won't tackle if I know the principles involved.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I have dealt with Engineers many times in the past, and most of those experiences were terrible to say the least. After all is said and done, they are always right even though it was the Tradesman that had to make it so.

bob...

I just bumped into this thread.
I was offended by the opening post...but thought it humorous that he were so kind to allow the HVAC contractor to do what work he didn't want to invest the time in.
Loose translation...the dirty work.
How kind.