Can't get pressure tank above 24lbs, jet pump

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garliceggs

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I have a shallow well w/jet pump and pressure tank. It has always worked fine in the past. This year, I've had some problems with the pump/tank.

I started out with the emptied tank at 18lbs (I'm almost certain the pump is 20/40, but not %100). I can prime the pump, start it up and draw as much water from it as I like. The problem is that the pump never shuts off and the tank pressure never exceeds 24psi. I have tried shutting off the outbound line on the tank and this had no effect (on building pressure).

I tried installing a new pump and the results were identical.
 
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Rancher

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1. The pump may be uncapable of making more than 24 psi of pressure.
2. The pipe to the switch may be plugged and is not reading the increase in pressure.

So... do you have good pressure at the house, if so it's #2, if not it's #1.

Rancher
 

garliceggs

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I did not assemble this system (though I've worked on it before and replaced one pump). I mention this because it will account for some of the missing data from my post.

Apparently the pressure gauge is located on the outbound line of the tank. I am under the impression that bladder tanks have a regulator installed in them to keep the outbound pressure constant and this would explain the gauge readings. But perhaps there is no such regulator? I don't know. The pressure gauge has been installed after these problems started so I don't have anything good to compare it to.

When the pump is running, pressure is decent at the house. I'm pretty sure there is only one line going between the pump and the tank, since I can pump water through here I don't see how it can be plugged and cause problems with reading the pressure.

There is a check valve on the water side of the pump, but I'm not sure what amount of pressure is required to close this valve. It currently doesn't appear to hold at all and the pump loses prime when shut off.
 

Speedbump

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Before you said you installed another pump I would have said you have a plugged jet. And you still may if your pipes and the old pumps innards were full of sulphur (black) or iron (gold).

There is no regulator in a bladder tank. So if your gauge is new and says 24 lbs. I would believe it. I assume the pump does not shut off by itself, right?

the pump loses prime when shut off.

I'm not sure what you mean. Does the water run right back down the well if you turn off the pump? Or does it simply lose it's prime after a period of non use?

bob...
 

garliceggs

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No black or gold in the pump that I can see. We have pulled a bit of sand up from the well, but not enough to plug anything.

The pump does not shut off by itself.

The water does drain back into the well, usually right away (when I shut it off), but sometimes it takes 5 or 10 minutes.
 

Speedbump

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First of all, you need a new check valve. Or better yet a footvalve down in the well if possible instead of that line check.

What was the brand name and horse power of the old and new pump?

Will this pump shut itself off by the pressure switch?

bob...
 

garliceggs

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I don't know the brand or HP of either of the pumps. But I think one of them was a flotec, I think the other was something else. I would guess they are the 1/2 hp variety.

Over the years, I think this pump has been replaced once or twice.

The checkvalve can be replaced fairly easily. But does this answer why I can't build any pressure in the tank?
 

Speedbump

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The Flotec probably can't make more than that out of the box if the water level is rather low.

There is no reason I can think of other than plugged jets or impellers why two working pumps only make the same low pressure.

Maybe you need a larger horsepower and much better brand of pump.

bob...
 

garliceggs

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Well, the flo-tech and others have worked just fine on there in the past.

I guess I don't know what the water level is like, but the sand point is down maybe 15 feet at most. There doesn't seem to be any problem pulling up water so I don't understand how having more hp is going to fix this. Can you elaborate?
 

Speedbump

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Your problem doesn't make sense. Any shallow well jet pump pulling from less than 15 feet should be able to make a minimum of 40 psi. Yet you have two pumps that won't make past 24 lbs. You are telling me the jet isn't plugged, so I have no other solutions other than more horsepower, more pressure.

bob...
 
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Rancher

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If it worked before but doesn't work now, and you've changed out the pump, you need to do some more checking around. "When the pumping the pressure is decent at the house" That indicates the gauge and pressure switch is not seeing that decent pressure.

Get a hose end pressure gauge and attach it to a faucet and tell us what the pressure gets up to.

Rancher
 

garliceggs

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I don't know what the pressure at the house actually is (I'll have to measure it next time I'm there), but it doesn't appear to be any worse than it was before. That being said - I don't know that it was really very high to begin with. I have a sink, toilet, shower, and one external hose. Maybe they can run fine off of 24lbs?

What would happen if the tank were bad and had become waterlogged? Or if I had no tank on the system at all? Would the pump cycle on and off whenever I used water?

Or would (as my coworker suggests) the pump just remain on all the time, but not pressurize the system? I don't see how that's possible, but I also don't claim to know very much about pumps.

Are there any decent books on the subject?
 
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What would happen if the tank were bad and had become waterlogged? Or if I had no tank on the system at all? Would the pump cycle on and off whenever I used water?
Yes it would cycle on and off.

Or would (as my coworker suggests) the pump just remain on all the time, but not pressurize the system? I don't see how that's possible, but I also don't claim to know very much about pumps.
Nope that's not possible.

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Speedbump

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If the tank is waterlogged, but the pump can only build 24 lbs and the pressure switch is set for 40 or for 25 for that matter, it will NOT cycle.

If you remove the tank and the above is true, then the above is true.

Back to pump school Rancher!

bob...
 

garliceggs

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Yes, but I'm pretty sure that the pump is capable of creating more than 24 lbs of pressure. It did last year, and the year before, etc. In fact, when we first hooked it up it created 40 or almost 40, but didn't shut off. We pumped out about 12 gallons of dirty water and then it seemed like the well ran dry.

We had several instances where we couldn't get very much water out of the well, but in August we started getting lots of rain and I think this has filled it back up - at least we're able to pull as much out as we want to now.

We did get some sand out of the well. This made its way through the pump and into the tank - about a teaspoon worth. I would guess that it's in the lines too.

If you remove the tank and the above is true, then the above is true.

I think there may be two different "aboves" here.

Let me assume that the pump is capable of creating enough pressure to cut out (40 say). In this case, when I remove the tank and don't have any fixtures turned on (no water flow) the pump should cycle on and off with the water usage.
 

Speedbump

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If it were capable of making 40 lbs and the switch is set at 40 lbs, then it will shut off. Otherwise it will keep on running.

bob...
 

garliceggs

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Is part of this related to the supply side? If there's some sort of issue there, like the water level being low or the sand point being somewhat plugged, can that cause a decrease in pressure produced? Since we are able to get lots of water out of the well now, I wouldn't think this would be the case, but I'm at a loss to explain what's happening.
 

Speedbump

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No, the pump should be able to make more pressure regardless of how much water the well produces or what is on the pressure side of the pump. If let run it should keep building to it's max pressure capability, which is according to you 24 lbs.

bob...
 
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Rancher

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If the tank is waterlogged, but the pump can only build 24 lbs and the pressure switch is set for 40 or for 25 for that matter, it will NOT cycle.

If you remove the tank and the above is true, then the above is true.

Back to pump school Rancher!

bob...
Sorry Father Bob, but the question was, can a waterlogged tank cause the pump not to cycle, and the answer is no. And a pump that cannot reach the cutoff pressure will continue to run whether or not the tank is waterlogged.

You added a "but" to the question.

Rancher
 

Speedbump

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Nope, the first question was:
What would happen if the tank were bad and had become waterlogged? Or if I had no tank on the system at all? Would the pump cycle on and off whenever I used water?
The answer is NO. If the pump can't make but 24 lbs, the pressure switch won't let it cycle.

Second question:
Or would (as my coworker suggests) the pump just remain on all the time, but not pressurize the system? I don't see how that's possible, but I also don't claim to know very much about pumps
The answer is yes. The pump would remain on all the time and would not pressurize the system beyond 24 psi.

bob...
 
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