Who is KCPL trying to protect?

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Wet_Boots

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If the licenses out there have not been cutting any live wires, then they are probably aware of ways to accomplish a job like BobNH described, without the cutting of live wires, which rather paints the unlicensed amateur as someone who might forbear from posting about his achievements in electrical work, if they involve any procedures which might lead someone, reading about it on the internet, towards harm.
 

JWelectric

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I haven't attacked anyone's character. I have responded to the "holier than thou" attacks that call me ignorant without any regard to the properties of the tool that I used.
I have not attacked your character; I have said that you have shown a lot of ignorance in you action.
Ignorance is the lack of knowledge and this is something that you can see for yourself in any dictionary.
Ignorance of the danger in using an unlisted and untested tool to cut a energized conductor and the continued “proving†of the lack of danger has gone far past the point of stupidity.

I wasn't using "pruning shears". I was using an anvil lopper with long fiberglass reinforced handles containing no metal and covered with plastic in the holding area. The resistance between the single metal blade and handle exceeded the 30 Megohm scale on my meter.
Again you are showing you ignorance by trying to down play your actions by saying you used a “lopper†instead of “pruning sheers.â€
Although I am no expert in tree surgery I am smart enough to know that the “lopper†is used to “prune†trees and the like so to call it a lopper or pruning sheer would not make much difference.
I am also very sure that you have the expertise to do listing and labeling on equipment and tools and to list them as either cat I, cat II or cat III. Which level of safety do you rate your “loppers?â€

I suggest that you study Ohm's law (Amps = Volts/Resistance). It's the amperage that kills, but the amperage available through 30 Megohms (The scale limit of my meter) at 120 Volts is 4 microamps. That is about 1/1000 of the trip current of a GFCI. It was SAFE.
Not only do I study Ohm’s Law but I also teach it. I also know that using a “lopper†that is designed to have plant sap flowing over it and use it where you will be having electrons flowing over it is not safe to say the least. Should something go wrong and the rivet that holds the two halves together and also lets it pivot could cause a flash that has the ability to blind, burn or even kill.

How do you dismount the old meter pan and move it without disconnecting the service drop? All of the meter pans that I have seen are mounted via fasteners inside the pan. If you haven't disconnected the service drop (I cut the service drop BEFORE I removed the meter and the meter pan.) you are working in very close proximity to energized meter terminals. That is a lot more dangerous than cutting a hot wire with 30-Megohm-insulated tool.
Well it is as simple as removing the screws that hold the pan to the building and the straps holding the cable and letting the whole unit swing on the SE cable just as a child’s swing.
The key in you statement is; “working in very close proximity to energized meter terminals†and this can never be as dangerous as, “I cut the service drop†especially using a cutter designed for cutting plant life no matter how many times you check it with your meter.

There is a very distinct difference between the cutting action of a lopper and a cable cutter and I truly hope that you learn the difference before it is too late and your faimly is burdened with an expense and the loss of a loved one.
 

Leejosepho

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If the licenses out there have not been cutting any live wires, then they are probably aware of ways to accomplish a job like BobNH described, without the cutting of live wires, which rather paints the unlicensed amateur ...

Whoa! Whether licensed as an electrician or not, Bob is no amateur.

... who might forbear from posting about his achievements in electrical work ...

That is not what he did. Rather, he responded to this at the beginning of this thread:

... safer way to disconnect power, as opposed to having to unwrap the eletrical tape they've placed on each of the incoming hot wires and unbolting each of the connecters that appear to be underneath the tape.

As a DIYer, I'm unfamiliar with the ways of the utility. Perhaps someone more experienced can tell me - does KCPL intend for me to disconnect via the pigtail, thus leaving their metering equipment undisturbed but putting me at risk of shock if I'm careless? Or does the installation of a pigtail come with the implicit understanding that I will pull the meter? If so, why bother with a pigtail in the first place instead of just cutting or allowing me to cut the seal?

Now personally, I generally agree with this:

... forbear from posting ... if [things posted] involve any procedures which might lead someone, reading about it on the internet, towards harm.

However, the arrogant and attempted trashing of Bob (and even a few cheap shots taken at me) as some kind of incompetent fool has not be an accurate, effective, educational, helpful or acceptable way to address that matter.
 

Wet_Boots

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'Amateur' is not a perjorative, but an accurate term to describe the individual using loppers to cut live wires. An amateur isn't devoid of skills, but may not be aware of standard procedure to accomplish a task. I was contemplating a complete rewire of a cottage I was residing in, including a new meter box, breaker panel, and service connection. At no time was I ever planning to cut a live wire to accomplish the task.

The criticisms may not be polite, but they are being launched from the technical/safety/whatever high ground, and are fundamentally unanswerable. Protest if you wish, but you can expect to be shouted down, and lacking the high ground, you lose in the court of public opinion.

There's stuff I do using a blowtorch, that I will never post about on an advice forum, because I know someone reading it, who lacks the experience I possess, may be likely do damage if they attempt the same thing.
 

Leejosepho

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'Amateur' is ... an accurate term to describe the individual using loppers to cut live wires.

Not so. To wit:

---
Amateur (old Webster): A person attached to a particular pursuit, study or science, as to music or painting; one who has a taste for the arts.

Amateur (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary): one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession; one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science.
---

"Amateur", then, at least can include knowledgeable and has no direct connection to selection(s) of tools.

An amateur isn't devoid of skills, but may not be aware of standard procedure to accomplish a task.

Again, not so. In fact, that is completely backwards.

I was contemplating a complete rewire of a cottage I was residing in, including a new meter box, breaker panel, and service connection. At no time was I ever planning to cut a live wire to accomplish the task.

... and that statement proves what here?

The criticisms may not be polite ...

... and why are they not? Civility can function well even outside of so-called "political correctness".

... but they are being launched from the technical/safety/whatever high ground ...

Mostly from the "whatever" plateau, I would say, and with very little, if actually any, mention of any technical data related to any tool allegedly more appropriate than Bob's as he has clearly described it.

Protest if you wish, but you can expect to be shouted down ...

We will see ...

... and lacking the high ground ...

I much prefer "down here" anyway ...

... you lose in the court of public opinion.

So what if I do?

There's stuff I do using a blowtorch, that I will never post about on an advice forum, because I know someone reading it, who lacks the experience I possess, may be likely do damage if they attempt the same thing.

Same here, and I would personally prefer Bob had never mentioned "Fiskar" or used the term "pruning lopper". However, he had free choice on that matter just as do you concerning your blow torch and as have I concerning any particular tool I might either use or misuse in whatever way.
 

Speedy Petey

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This thread will continue until [Lee's] personalit[y] [is] no longer placed above principles and that message is clear to everyone!
Hey, I'm good at that quoting thing too.

Lee, you as bad as anyone here.

Can we let this crap go and agree to disagree?? Please!
 

Wet_Boots

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I think the horse was dead a long time ago, and whining about being criticized for irresponsible postings is counter-productive. And picking apart other postings with quoted excerpts is appropriate for folks with no positive contributions to make.
 

Cookie

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horse_wtf1.gif



Not quite...
 
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JWelectric

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Whoa! Whether licensed as an electrician or not, Bob is no amateur.
Up to this point I have only addressed the advice that Bob gave about the use of an unlisted tool to cut an energized conductor.
Then Joseph Lee O comes into the discussion and starts defending the use of a lawn and garden tool to cut energized conductors and defending Bob as not being an amateur.

I will not debate weather or not you or Bob are amateurs or not but I can debate weather Bob has very much of an idea of what he is talking about or not. Anyone with enough knowledge of electrical to give advice on how to do a service change out would have enough knowledge to know that you would NEVER;
5. Ran the new Grounding Equipment Conductor to the Grounding Electrodes.
The only conductors that EVER connect to the grounding electrodes are 1- the grounding electrode conductor and 2- the electrode bonding jumpers.

However, the arrogant and attempted trashing of Bob (and even a few cheap shots taken at me) as some kind of incompetent fool has not be an accurate, effective, educational, helpful or acceptable way to address that matter.
I have not attempted to trash You or Bob. The only thing I have done is elaborate on how crazy it was to use a lawn and garden tool to cut an energized conductor.

If it had been my intention to trash Bob I would have picked apart his method and misuse in terminology. I would have addressed the giving of advice on a site directed to the Do-It-Yourself or ever working on any live circuit. This in itself is a violation of the law as adopted by the federal government, state and local laws. (OSHA)

This is NOT a discussion of the knowledge of any individual person or that person’s knowledge of electricity.

What this discussion IS about is the use of a lawn and garden tool being used to cut an energized conductor. I have said and will continue to say that anyone that would use a lawn and garden tool to cut an energized conductor as well as anyone that would advocate such an action is a few eggs short of a dozen. Their elevator is stuck in the basement. They have a hole in their pocket and are losing their marvels. They are a few brick short of a full load. They have not yet earned the right to be called an amateur. But then again I am discussing this with someone that can’t see any danger in letting a small child play around a job site while work is taking place.
my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition,...
I suppose that if someone can not see the danger in something then they assume that no danger exist.
 
R

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jwelectric said:
If it had been my intention to trash Bob I would have picked apart his method and misuse in terminology. I would have addressed the giving of advice on a site directed to the Do-It-Yourself or ever working on any live circuit. This in itself is a violation of the law as adopted by the federal government, state and local laws. (OSHA)
I hate to contribute to continuing this thread, but jw, please quote me the OSHA or federal law that restricts a Do-it-Yourselfer from doing what Bob did... there isn't one.

On the other hand I did exactly what Bob did about 25 years ago, I re-located my Power Entrance Panel, but instead of doing it myself I called the power company because I knew they would do it for free, this may not be the case in all parts of the country.

But there is no OSHA ruling that would have prevented me from doing so, after all OSHA protects the employees of the companies that use tree loppers for cutting cable, not the general public.

I don't think Bob was giving advice on how to do it, but just how he did it.

Rancher
 

Cookie

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Rancher,

I think, that horse is for sale before he gets on his last leg, :D

Cookie:)
 

Leejosepho

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What this discussion IS about is the use of a lawn and garden tool being used to cut an energized conductor. [Nevertheless] I have said and will continue to say that anyone that would ...

Which is it? Tools, or people being discussed?!

Also, your assumption that my grandchildren play nearby while my son-in-law and I work on our addition is *completely* incorrect. When they have "play breaks", they go with adult supervision to the sand box on the other side of the house.

Can we let this crap go and agree to disagree??

About what, or who, or ...?!

I got to thinking last night, and it struck me that pruning loppers pre-date any and all electrical tools by probably at least a century or two ... and what does that have to do with anything here? I just have to believe the early electricians did exactly as Bob did by analyzing their "loppers" and using them to cut wires (even hot ones) if their loppers were deemed safe, and that they continued doing so until somebody later decided to make some special ones with guaranteed safety and higher prices. I have decided not to take the time to do this, but I am willing to bet a compilation of Bob's description of the tool he used would be commended if his mention of the brand name and "pruning lopper" were ignored.

Speedy: Would you at least consider considering to agree about that? If so, I might just go ahead and put that description together for you or anyone else to review.
 

Cookie

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Well, Lee, my family goes back with electricity since Ben Franklin's time. I think, my dad held his kite for him. :)

Check out this nice site, where I spent many moons in Philly.
http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/info/kite.htm


I got to tell you, there just are correct ways of doing things to this date and it just doesn't matter how things were done days of yesteryear. What does matter is of today.

We are very fortunate with all the knowledge we have, fortunate to have all the data we can resort to for further knowledge and skill. Baaaaack in the olden days they had to resort to using some element of risk but not now. We learned by their mistakes.

Now we just simply know better. Don't you just agree with this?
 
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Leejosepho

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I got to tell you, there just are correct ways of doing things to this date and it just doesn't matter how things were done days of yesteryear. What does matter is of today.

We are very fortunate with all the knowledge we have, fortunate to have all the data we can resort to for further knowledge and skill. Baaaaack in the olden days they had to resort to using some element of risk but not now. We learned by their mistakes.

Now we just simply know better. Don't you just agree with this?

No, Cookie, and especially not in the context of this discussion. What is safe is safe and what is not is not, and that was no different in the past than it is today. Now yes, we might today have some larger accumulations of knowledge related to safety, but we also have alleged do-gooders presuming to do everyone's thinking for them ... and that can actually leave people more greatly endangered.

Oh, and did you happen to see MythBusters testing kites and keys a few days ago? Ben Franklin's type of string can actually pick up a measurable static charge even in dry air, and with some difficulty, they were able to get a very small spark to jump from a key while in a well-controlled laboratory setting. Overall, however, their experiments "busted" the myth that Ben survived a fingertip engagement with a lightning bolt!
 

JWelectric

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Also, your assumption that my grandchildren play nearby while my son-in-law and I work on our addition is *completely* incorrect. When they have "play breaks", they go with adult supervision to the sand box on the other side of the house.

You crack me up! As long as we are on the ground, my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition, and those boys have yet to receive a single scratch anywhere! We have some simple "safety rules" we *never* compromise, and my grandchildren are learning safety right along with driving nails into large blocks of soft wood....

Now you are truly cracking me up.

The little arrow in the blue box beside your name will take you to the post that YOU made yourself. Only you or a moderator can edit your post so I do believe you are now trying to say two different things.
First you say that, “my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition†but now you are saying, “When they have "play breaks", they go with adult supervision to the sand box on the other side of the house.â€

I am inclined to believe the first post that the children do play around the construction site based on the pictures that has been posted.

OSHA or federal law. Rancher
This should have been posted to say the “rule†as adopted not “lawâ€
You are correct that the Department of Labor will not fine an individual for doing his own work and the reference to OSHA was to point out that there are special precautions that are to be taken when working on energized circuits. The safety precautions that are taken not the enforcement of the rule.

That is exactly what everyone has been very clearly saying.
I believe he understands but is to bull headed to admit to it.
 
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