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Thread: Who is KCPL trying to protect?

  1. #76
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I am beginning to understand that your analytical thinking brings you to the conclusion that if it works it must be safe. You analyze the safety issues through the process of, ďit didnít fall so it must be safe or Bob didnít get electrocuted so it must be safe.
    No, not so -- logic does not always lead to truth. Rather, years' worth of mechanical experiences and several good teachers have shown me how to step back and take a clear look at something beforehand, and to then proceed and follow through in the very best way available and/or reasonably possible under whatever circumstances ... such as how to get enough equipment, tools and manpower to near the top of a large pile of building rubble to get a D-4 dozer back on its tracks. There is no "code book" or operations manual for that kind of thing.

    Personally, I have much respect for tradesmen, and I do understand their occasional angst when someone like me comes along.

    Here is another picture you might enjoy:
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    Last edited by leejosepho; 10-21-2007 at 03:17 AM. Reason: add picture

  2. #77
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
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    Default Some POCOs are less picky than others, apparently

    A couple of weeks ago a landscaper drove his Bobcat through the electrical and water lines from the house to a detached wellhouse. It turned out the electrical conduit terminated at the bottom of the meter box -- the installer had used the service entrance conduit as a convenient path to the main panel. So, to replace the subfeed, I had to unseal and open the meter box to get the old wire out. (I took the opportunity to penetrate the wall in a separate place for the wellhouse circuit, leaving the meter box "clean".) I called the POCO the next day to advise them I had broken the seal. They said no big deal, they'd replace it when the meter was read (the 25th or so).

    Around here, we would never use loppers to cut a service drop. We carry rifles in our pickups for that .

  3. #78
    Rancher
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho View Post
    Here is another picture you might enjoy:
    Hey someone else invented an electric dirt sifter, I knew I should have patented that idea... And at least the kid is using a non-conductive shovel...

    Rancher

  4. #79
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rancher View Post
    Hey someone else invented an electric dirt sifter ...
    That was built as a worm harvester, but I ended up using it to clean our driveway when the guy who ordered it gave up on raising worms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rancher
    And at least [your number one grandson] is using a non-conductive shovel...
    Wow, I had not even noticed!

    Safety just comes naturally for some of us, eh?!

  5. #80
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I called the POCO the next day to advise them I had broken the seal. They said no big deal, they'd replace it when the meter was read (the 25th or so).
    I tried that once, and I got a lecture alleging meter tampering! But when I asked the woman what sense it would make for me to call if I was up to no good, she relented and just sent somebody out with a new tag.

  6. #81
    DIY Senior Member BrianJohn's Avatar
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    I have been cutting tags for 35+ years and never had an issue

  7. #82

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    I just replaced a 200 amp service that was hot and had no meter [and incredibly, no meter cover] for 32 years. Since the power company took so long to come turn it off for my work, and I had some welding to do on an excavator, i borrowed a few amps from their exposed hot lugs.

    I figure they owe it to me for informing them of their screw up that should have barbequed a neighborhood kid over all those years. Almost charred myself when starting work, but on the outside chance they were totally incompetent, put a meter to it first. My wife would have been in the pink after that!

    NOW..... got the new box in and tagged by building, but they are following new rules and want to see a house before reheating the box! We will see about that, but the moral of the story is big Bro POCo is not a good or reliable or particularly competent person to deal with.

  8. #83
    DIY Senior Member BrianJohn's Avatar
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    Think about they have 1000's of customers that one falls through the cracks and it benefited the end user, no foul no harm.

    And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.

  9. #84
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJohn View Post
    And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.
    I find this humorous after all the hyperventilating, including from BrianJohn, about my using what are in fact well-insulated and safe pruning loppers to cut a #2 aluminum wire that was energized at 120 Volts.

  10. #85
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH View Post
    I find this humorous after all the hyperventilating, including from BrianJohn, about my using what are in fact well-insulated and safe pruning loppers to cut a #2 aluminum wire that was energized at 120 Volts.

    Bob,

    I am having a hard time believing that you don’t understand the danger that you took cutting a live wire with pruning sheers.

    Your comment about it being 120 volts neither lends nor leads to the safety you showed in this thread.

    You should know that the only thing that protects the secondary of the transformer is the fuse on the primary side. This could let the secondary hold indefinitely around 500 amps to ground fault. This is enough heat to raise the temperature of approximately 18,850 gallons of water 10 degrees.
    Reference;
    One watt equals 3.1412 BTUs
    One British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the amount of heat it takes to raise the temperature on one gallon of water one degree.
    How much liquid does the human body have?

    Copper becomes liquid at around 5000 degrees Fahrenheit. This a whole lot of heat for the human body to endure.

    I hope that you understand that the human body will carry current on an exponential curve and the longer the current flows the less the bodies resistance until there is a bolted fault. By this time flesh has burned completely away.

    I also hope that you understand that anytime that there is current flow heat is produced. If enough current flows it can cause coagulating of the blood that will go undetected for days until a sharp pain is felt in the chest and …….. Well I’ll let you form your own opinion.
    To aid in this opinion there are more deaths recorded as heart failure after an electrical shock than any other death electrically connected. Reference; Copper Bussmann Safety Basics

    I do hope that every person that reads this thread understands that there was nothing safe about cutting energized conductors with pruning sheers.
    I hope that everyone reading this thread understands that if cutting energized conductors with pruning sheers was a safe method then the manufactures of cable cutters would have went out of business a long time ago.

    Over the past 40 years and thousand or so service changes I have done I have never cut an energized service drop. There is no need to and careful planning a temporary receptacle can be set up without any danger of contact with live conductors.

    Last edited by Terry; 10-23-2007 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #86
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Bob,

    I am having a hard time believing that you don’t understand the danger that you took cutting a live wire with pruning sheers ...

    Over the past 40 years and thousand or so service changes I have done I have never cut an energized service drop ...
    Well then, so much for speaking from experience, eh?!
    Last edited by Terry; 10-23-2007 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #87
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho View Post
    Well then, so much for speaking from experience, eh?!
    Yep! There is much to be said about "experoence" but myself I think that "common sense" carries a lot of weight also.

    One thing for sure, there is a lot more of us "experienced" around that has "common sense" than there are experienced without common sense.

    I suppose that one would require some level of common sense before one could reconize danger. What do you think?

  13. #88
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I suppose that one would require some level of common sense before one could reconize danger. What do you think?
    Surely, and that common-sense recognition of danger in conjunction with both overall and specific knowledge, experience and careful planning left Bob both absolutely and rightly certain he would be completely safe doing exactly as he did.

  14. #89
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho View Post
    Surely, and that common-sense recognition of danger in conjunction with both overall and specific knowledge, experience and careful planning left Bob both absolutely and rightly certain he would be completely safe doing exactly as he did.
    And that kind of thinking is the very reason the grave yard is as full as it is now.

    There is no amount of reasoning or explanation that would even come close to making what Bob did safe.

    This is like the guy playing Russian Roulette and didn’t kill himself on the first pull of the trigger. Well let’s keep pulling the trigger just because the gun didn’t fire the first time it MUST BE A SAFE GAME TO PLAY.
    Last edited by Terry; 10-23-2007 at 10:36 PM.

  15. #90
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    It wasn't unsafe! I knew the cutters were insulated far beyond that necessary to protect me from 120 volts, and that I could not reach the hot wire. There was more than a foot of insulated handle between me and the 120 Volts. The insulation was more than 10 times the insulation on a meter lead that is rated for 1000 Volts. It was also a lot safer than a pair of linemans pliers with insulated handles because the separation distance was much greater.

    The bolted fault current of the transformer is irrelevant if the insulation far exceeds the voltage resistance of the material between the human. Even after all or your hyperventilating on the subject I would do it again and again because I KNOW it was and is safe.

    You guys with your "I'm an electrician and therefore I'm holier than thou." attitude are acting like you are gods of electricity and everyone else is totally ignorant of how to keep themselves safe.

    Maybe BrainJohn who gave us the statement that "And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts." can give us a link to the equipment and parts that are POCO approved and UL "listed for the purpose" of tapping into unmetered hot service drops.

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