Who is KCPL trying to protect?

[BrianJohn]

... and I personally prefer teachers over trainers.

While I do teach classes, I am here as a interested party not to teach or train but when I see something I see as WRONG I feel the need to state my opinion hoping that someone will possible learn from my knowledge, not as a trainer or teacher but as a professional that has expierence in this particular field.

[Speedy Petey]

Exactly our points. I don't have to "teach" you anything Lee. I'll give my opinion and try to back that up with fact if I can, and I usually can. If I can "instruct" a bit, or provide a code reference I do. The code part is easy.
No one is "telling" anyone what to think.


Also, STOP quoting our posts with your interpretations Lee. If you are going to quote us do so then reply.



"a pair of Fiskar pruning loppers with fiberglass handles already tested on larger 4/0 wire"
Tested??????????

Nevertheless, we all certainly do agree that the typical DIYer (including myself) should *never* cut *any* hot wires with *anything* at all.

This is the ONLY smart thing you've written in this whole thread.

[Raucina]

Speaking of stealing electricity, I once dug up a tap on a 200 amp underground service.

It was a rather ingenious set up, where the 4" conduit had been sliced open and a "cap" removed from the top. Split bushings were installed over the 2 hots, they had been tapped for a set screw that when driven home energized the circuit and actually made shutting off the tap quite easy and convienent. The tap fed a water heater and a pump only.

You guys ever see stuff like that around?

[leejosepho]

I'll give my opinion and try to back that up with fact if I can ...

This is the ONLY smart thing you've written in this whole thread.

... and do you have any facts to back that up?!

Or, what about this one:

... IMO using a pruning tool to cut a live wire is neither knowledgeable nor well planned out.

Generally speaking, even Bob would likely agree even though that statement was not actually true in his own case.

[Speedy Petey]

... and do you have any facts to back that up?!

YES! It's called the UL White Book! You might think of thumbing through it!

Then again there's OSHA, or even the NEC.

I am truly astounded that you are stupid enough to keep defending, even encouraging, this practice so vigorously!
And yes, I am stooping to name calling. It is justified!

[jwelectric]

... Speedy Petey
I'll give my opinion and try to back that up with fact if I can ... This is the ONLY smart thing you've written in this whole thread.

and do you have any facts to back that up?!

Well Lee based on some to the statements you have made in this thread I am lead to believe that you haven’t said very many things that make very much sense.

Here you say;

That "contraption" is nothing other than a step ladder, and the nearby pipe is laying in the branches of a tree. The ladder and pipe are tied together, thereby making everything quite stable and the child's mother is watching from just beyond the camera's view. When the facts are known, there is no safety issue there.

but here you say;

Hardly so. The pipe is not even in the ladder. It is leaning into the branches of the tree and the ladder is simply alongside.

You even point out to us that

You crack me up! As long as we are on the ground, my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition, and those boys have yet to receive a single scratch anywhere! We have some simple "safety rules" we *never* compromise, and my grandchildren are learning safety right along with driving nails into large blocks of soft wood.

When I then read your statement that;

A good trainer can help keep people relatively safe without their having to do very much analytical thinking. Rather than merely telling people *what* to think, however, a good teacher helps people learn to actually do so ... and I personally prefer teachers over trainers.

I do understand that a child such as pictured under a ladder (between two and three years old) with a 20 foot plus pipe tied to it and leaned in a tree with a flexible hose connect to the end of the pipe, the closest adult at least 20 to 25 feet away is a prime example of keeping the child

relatively safe without their having to do very much analytical thinking.

Now I am beginning to understand why you are making this remark when someone makes the statement that cutting energized conductors with a pruning sheer is dangerous;

..Generally speaking, even Bob would likely agree even though that statement was not actually true in his own case.

I am beginning to understand that your analytical thinking brings you to the conclusion that if it works it must be safe. You analyze the safety issues through the process of, “it didn’t fall so it must be safe or Bob didn’t get electrocuted so it must be safe.

In closing I only hope and pray that this child has the metal ability to analyze the fact that when this pipe tied to a ladder with a flexible hose connected has pressure coming from the highest end that the force applied will exert a force that opposes the direction on the base of the ladder and there might be enough movement to topple everything to the ground.
I also hope that this child has the metal ability to analyze the fact that a service drop supplying a house has enough energy to burn his body to a crisp in less than a second. Based on your comments through out this thread (I have no idea what was being discussed in the thread where the ladder fountain was originally posted) it is obvious that you ability to analyze the danger in these methods falls far short of the dangers involved.

I must also make the statement that I pray that this child can find someone that does understand the dangers and is

a good teacher helps people learn.

[BrianJohn]

In response to the illegal tap question.

In western Loudoun County the local COOP utility was swapping out meters from analog to digital with remote read capability. The meter guy pulled the meter and noticed the AC was still running.

Seems when the HO built the house he tapped the underground feeder to feed the AC, furnace and water heater. When he arrived home the utility had dug up his driveway and the sheriff was there.

To avoid prosecution, he was required to pay a estimated bill for the 12 years he had lived there a penalty fee and do community service.

As for Lee I know when stupidity can not be convinced with facts, common sense and safety.

[hj]

In any case, a customer service specialist at Fiskar has responded to my question by saying she is not aware of any of their loppers being any safer than others around live wires.

I do not think she was saying that they are safe, but rather that they could kill you just as fast as any other brand.

[hj]

WE have to accept your description, but anyone using an aluminum ladder to work on live wires has to be deficient in the mental capacity area. Hands and feet are not the only way to contact the ladder. Any place the body were to make contact would provide a ground path, so he would need a rubber, not leather, suit also. And, only a very naive person would depend on someone's word that the breaker was off. I NEVER trust anyone's assurance that the power is off, and seldom believe the circuit breaker schedule inside the panel's door. I turn off the one that is indicated and THEN test the circuit to be sure it is off before proceeding to work on it.

[jwelectric]

I NEVER trust anyone's assurance that the power is off, and seldom believe the circuit breaker schedule inside the panel's door. I turn off the one that is indicated and THEN test the circuit to be sure it is off before proceeding to work on it.

As I was reading your post I just remembered what Bob had said about the lineman reconnecting his service.

I also watched the POCO lineman reconnect. He stood about 12 ft off the ground on an aluminum ladder, using both hands to work and consequently unable to hang on. He was wearing a pair of gloves but no arc-flash protection. I'm sure he must have been wearing EH boots. He asked me if the main breaker was off but he didn't check it

Just which breaker would the lineman be wanting to know if it was turned off.
Would it be the switcher at the substation?
To reconnect the service drop the only thing that could be turned off would be the primary fuse in the transformer.
Was the lineman expecting you to pull this fuse?

This thread is going from bad to worse.

[Speedy Petey]

Just which breaker would the lineman be wanting to know if it was turned off.
Would it be the switcher at the substation?
To reconnect the service drop the only thing that could be turned off would be the primary fuse in the transformer.
Was the lineman expecting you to pull this fuse?

Well this one I can answer.
They DO work live, but he wanted to know if the main was off so he did not make the taps while under a load. This can have VERY bad consequences as you know.
Same goes for simply plugging back in a meter.

[leejosepho]

... stupidity can not be convinced with facts, common sense and safety.

So true. But, stupid only is as stupid does, and Bob did not do anything stupid!

However, it would certainly be very foolish for anyone less knowledgeable or less able to anticipate and plan to do as he did.

[Terry]

I NEVER trust anyone's assurance that the power is off
hj

I never trust the homeowner or the panel markings when working with electricity either.
When I'm doing something like a dishwasher replacement, I like to touch the two wires together, making sure that if it surprises me, that my reaction to it doesn't hurt me.

Occasionally, there will be a loud "POP" and a flash of light, and the homeowner finds out that the panel has been mismarked.

And stay off of aluminum ladders.

[Bob NH]

As I was reading your post I just remembered what Bob had said about the lineman reconnecting his service.

The lineman asked me if my main breaker was off. He knew that his line was hot.

[leejosepho]

"... not aware of any of their loppers being any safer than others around live wires."

I do not think she [a customer service specialist at Fiskar] was saying that they are safe, but rather that they could kill you just as fast as any other brand.

Understood. While wondering about at least the remote possibility of hearing something about non-conductive handles, I had expected to hear some kind of caution or warning about using any of their loppers anywhere near live wires, but her response makes sense in the light of overal liability issues. My guess would be that a precautionary statement of some kind comes along with each new pair.