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Thread: Who is KCPL trying to protect?

  1. #46

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    Obviously leejosepho has a problem admitting he might be wrong, but apparently safety is not one of his better traits. Note the small child playing under this contraption he gloated about in a previous thread.
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  2. #47
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yarddog
    Note the small child playing under this contraption ...
    That "contraption" is nothing other than a step ladder, and the nearby pipe is laying in the branches of a tree. The ladder and pipe are tied together, thereby making everything quite stable and the child's mother is watching from just beyond the camera's view. When the facts are known, there is no safety issue there.

    Quote Originally Posted by George R
    Why do you insist on arguing ...

    I believe BobNH to be a careful guy as well. I'm sure he [knew] he was very safe in doing what he did ... Bob is an educated [knowledgeable], qualified guy, taking a calculated risk [well-planned].

    What you absolutely don't want on a DIY forum like this, is for future uneducated DIY Homeowner/Hacks reading this thread, is to think that it is OK to sever your service entrance cable with a pair of hedge clippers ...
    Ah, finally! Those are the reasons I have continued on as I have!

    Thank you.

  3. #48

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    Wow, Bob and Lee, you might as well use pot holders and a circular saw. I had been married to an electrical engineer for 2 decades plus and I know the right tools to use to cut a hot/live wire. I inherited the tools, shopped talked endlessly, and helped him in the field.

    * I just put a quick phone call into his company, and for whatever it is worth, I was told, " wrong tool" for the job.
    Last edited by Cookie; 10-18-2007 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #49
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho
    That "contraption" is nothing other than a step ladder, and the nearby pipe is laying in the branches of a tree. The ladder and pipe are tied together, thereby making everything quite stable and the child's mother is watching from just beyond the camera's view. When the facts are known, there is no safety issue there.
    What works and what is safe are entirely two different things. The pipe span is far too long for the pipe to support itself and the child is in danger. Should the right people get involved Child Protective Services would have a field day.

    This is the problem with a lot of installations today. People think that just because it works it must be right and safe. The pipe in the ladder is one of the prime examples of ignorance and safety. The use of a pruning tool to cut hot wires is another example of ignorance and safety.

    Now before someone gets their feelings hurt;
    ig•no•rance: the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

    Someone doing things such as covered in this thread with knowledge, the noun is then changed to stupid. Stupidity as I am using it here means; a poor ability to understand or to profit from experience


    You choose which category you think you fit in but it will have to be one of the two above. No one in their right mind would allow a child to play under something such as pictured above.

    As I look at pictures and hear stories such as has been in this thread I wonder how mankind has survived through the years.
    Either there is a power much greater than mankind that protects or the evolution of mankind has started to reverse itself.
    Personally, myself I choose to believe that there is a power much greater than mankind.
    To quote an old cliché: “God looks after fools, drunks and little babies” and this thread is proof.

  5. #50
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Unfortuneately, medical science can keep more of the fools alive (I'm talking self-inflicted/induced damages here), so there are more of them around...survival of the fittest has its place. Sometimes they take the innocent with them, which to my mind is the real tragedy.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  6. #51
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George R
    All this having been said, I believe BobNH to be a careful guy as well. I'm sure he felt he was very safe in doing what he did. Even if he "got bit" it would probably be 110. We've all had a bit of that. Bob is an educated, qualified guy, taking a calculated risk.

    What you absolutely don't want on a DIY forum like this, is for future uneducated DIY Homeowner/Hacks reading this thread, is to think that it is OK to sever your service entrance cable with a pair of hedge clippers. BrianJohn is trying to tell you how it would be done by a pro with all of the proper tools for the job.
    I just have to add, this is my exact feeling as well.

  7. #52
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    What works and what is safe are entirely two different things.
    Not always. Some things that are considered "safe" actually work sometimes, and some things that even barely work can be quite safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    The pipe span is far too long for the pipe to support itself ...
    Then why was it still firmly standing against the limbs of the tree?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    ... and the child is in danger.
    Of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    Should the right people get involved Child Protective Services would have a field day.
    You crack me up! As long as we are on the ground, my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition, and those boys have yet to receive a single scratch anywhere! We have some simple "safety rules" we *never* compromise, and my grandchildren are learning safety right along with driving nails into large blocks of soft wood.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    People think that just because it works it must be right and safe.
    This thread has hopefully helped to bring that kind of thinking into question.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    The pipe in the ladder is one of the prime examples of ignorance and safety.
    Hardly so. The pipe is not even in the ladder. It is leaning into the branches of the tree and the ladder is simply alongside.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    The use of a pruning tool to cut hot wires is another example of ignorance and safety.
    Generally, yes, but not in Bob's case.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    No one in their right mind would allow a child to play under something such as pictured above.
    The child was not playing either there or anywhere nearby. Rather, and after he had asked to go take a look, he was being given an opportunity to see and to begin to catch the idea of water in a well. Here is the child at play -- again closely watched and supervised -- the next day as I was pumping the well clear ...
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    Last edited by leejosepho; 10-18-2007 at 05:23 PM.

  8. #53
    Sprinkler Guy Wet_Boots's Avatar
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    Given the human ability to misread and misinterpret what they see on the internet, someone out there may elect to use metal-handled loppers in a similar situation, and become a finalist for the Darwin Award.

    When I read postings from guys who are about to dismantle a still-installed-and-connected-to-power pump and 'poke around in there' I start to think about it could all go horribly wrong, and I suggest they might be better off using their telephone and checkbook, and get the problems dealt with safely.

  9. #54
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho
    You crack me up! As long as we are on the ground, my grandchildren are at times right there alongside as my son-in-law and I work on our addition, and those boys have yet to receive a single scratch anywhere! We have some simple "safety rules" we *never* compromise, and my grandchildren are learning safety right along with driving nails into large blocks of soft wood....
    Here is a clear and concise demonstration of the difference between ignorance and stupidity.

    I leave it up to the reader to decide which is which.

  10. #55
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    I have smiled while watching this thread develop.

    I cut the wires with a pair of loppers that I had already tested on larger 4/0 wire, that I knew to be insulated, with handles that were long enough to reach the wire in a manner where the wire could not reach back to me and I could not reach the hot end, also wearing new and dry leather gloves. I knew that I was not at risk.

    I also watched the POCO lineman reconnect. He stood about 12 ft off the ground on an aluminum ladder, using both hands to work and consequently unable to hang on. He was wearing a pair of gloves but no arc-flash protection. I'm sure he must have been wearing EH boots. He asked me if the main breaker was off but he didn't check it.

    He carved the insulation off the wires with a standard utility knife (what we used to call a "linoleum knife"), and he crimped on the connectors with a battery powered crimper. He had to hold the electrically hot connector in his gloved hand while he held the heavy battery powered tool in his other hand, all the while standing on the rung of the ladder without holding on. His unprotected skin and the aluminum ladder that he was standing on were a lot closer to the hot conductor than I ever was.

    He was safe because he knew what he was doing and was using protective equipment and tools that he knew were adequate to keep him safe.

    I was safe because I knew what I was doing and was using tools and protective equipment that I knew were adequate to cut the wire and keep me safe.

  11. #56

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    Personally Bob, anything that has to do with my life at stake, I check myself. ( the breaker) I would never take the word from anyone else. To be honest, even a layman myself, I could cite a few things that makes me wonder about this man's choices in what he did. Just my humble opinion. Regarding your choice of tools why not buy the correct tool, that way it eliminates most risk in assuming. Remember their are those who are reading these posts whom do not have the knowledge maybe, you do.

  12. #57
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Bob
    I am not disputing you story as you were there and I wasn’t but there are a few things that I know.

    Should this lineman have been seen doing these things he would have lost his job on the spot and not even allowed to return to the shop in the company truck.

    I don’t know of any power company that owns aluminum ladders nor have I ever saw one on a power company truck.

    Leather is not an insulator. A lineman will wear rubber gloves under leather gloves when handling live wires. The leather gloves are used for grip purposes ONLY!!

    Every power company lineman I have ever witnessed used a bucket truck to work on energized lines. I have never seen a lineman use a ladder even when a ladder was present on the job.

    The use of pruning sheers as a cable cutter is nothing less than idiotic to say the least but to use them to cut a live wire is far worse. To think that leather would protect someone form a shock is nothing short of …… well I just can’t think of an adjective that would fit the description.

    Reading your post it is easy to see that you are fairly smart but to defend the use of pruning sheers as a cable cutter especially when the conductor is energized sort of takes me back and makes me rethink the impression I have of you.

    I have been told all my life that there are three type of sense in this world. One is like dollars and cents, another is book learned sense and finally we have the most needed, common sense.
    I do hope that anyone reading this thread that does not have the book learned sense will have enough common sense to NOT use a pruning sheer to cut an energized conductor wearing leather gloves.

    I am looking forward to making post like this one instead of the ones like in this thread.
    Please keep up the good work that I am used to seeing you do and please forget about posting the things you have done in the past such as you have described in this thread.

  13. #58
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Bob, this thread has NOT developed because of you taking a calculated risk or doing anything wrong. I personally disagree with your decision to use such a tool, which is simply my own opinion, and was castigated for it.
    The thread then developed into why using the wrong tool for the job was sooooo wrong. The endless defense of this, IMO, is a terrible example to any DIYers (and some professionals) out there who might think it's fine to do this.


    I will also say, if our linemen were to do as yours did they would get the same punishment JW described. That lineman should be ASHAMED!!!!!!! He was a complete FOOL!!

  14. #59
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    The thread ... developed into why using [a pair of Fiskar pruning loppers with fiberglass handles already tested on larger 4/0 wire, [known] to be insulated, with handles that were long enough to reach the wire in a manner where the wire could not reach back to [the user] and [the user] could not reach the hot end] for the job was sooooo wrong ...
    In fact, however, no such thing has yet been shown!

    Nevertheless, we all certainly do agree that the typical DIYer (including myself) should *never* cut *any* hot wires with *anything* at all.

    A good trainer can help keep people relatively safe without their having to do very much analytical thinking. Wittingly or otherwise, some of the posters here in this thread prefer that kind of approach.

    Rather than merely telling people *what* to think, however, a good teacher helps people learn to actually do so ... and I personally prefer teachers over trainers.

  15. #60
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    A friend of mine lost her husband, an electritian using an aluminum ladder.

    The ladder came in contact with a wire, and that was it. Done.
    That's why I limit my exposure, and stick to plumbing.

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