Job Specs For Estimating

I've been interviewing quite a few contractors for a rough in, however I have only gotten a few bids, none of which are very consistent (excessively high and low).

What I'm looking for here is some opinions of this job from the plumbing contractors based on this spec packet, which is also provided to the contractor we are seeking bids from.

After looking at your plans and pricing materials in my area 8,ooo$

Thanks for taking the time to look. Does that include all rough in material given we are providing the bulk of the materials (tubing, valves, water heater, water filters)?

I'm also curious if anyone sees anything in the specs that might scare off potential bidders. I know some contractors have a problem with HOs providing materials, I personally don't care as long as they understand I am not responsible for something failing if they want junk.

Reason why I am providing materials here is I want to ensure material quality is maintained and I can get the stuff from my local supply house for considerably less than list.

job

I would not do a job for labor only. As soon as the customer starts supplying everything for the rough, you start having problems, because they will not have the items you need, unless they buy a lot more than will eventually be needed. It is impossible to predetermine every fitting you need beforehand. I did a job like that for a friend and spent a lot of time waiting for his wife to come back from the local Home Depot which was an hour away. And even then she had to call back to find out what she was supposed to get, and which of several versions we needed.

$14,924.58


A $59 surcharge for every alteration made above and beyond against the contract, or materials supplied are incorrect to install.

I'll get it done for $15,029.00 but will only charge 49/alteration after the first 5 change orders.

Just had to give Rugged some competition.

Oh, I'd prolly better disclose that I'll be hiring a cheap plumber I know to actually do the work since I'm not a plumber...

there is no such thing as a cheap plumber.

Maybe there are one or two out there. I know a guy who works for 35/hour...

BTW I Am a regestered plumber in my county.
Eitherhe is a hack or is pretending.I will add another 2000 If makes you happy.

Well, you were just a tad low.

There are always three classes of bidders: the crazies, the rationals, and the whiffs. It doesn't matter what industry or trade. It always seems that the work or property always goes to the crazies. Sometimes that works out and sometimes we read about'em in the papers.

I'm thinking about getting back into prospect evaluation. It's a tough business but the technical challenge is quite real. Anyway, that's my excuse for being a bit philisophical on Friday night.

My goal is to provide a service to my custemers I like to think that I have
done a good job all these years,It takes some time ,to get a handle on
things,it takes practice GOODLUCK with your projeckt.

hj said:

I would not do a job for labor only. As soon as the customer starts supplying everything for the rough, you start having problems, because they will not have the items you need, unless they buy a lot more than will eventually be needed. It is impossible to predetermine every fitting you need beforehand. I did a job like that for a friend and spent a lot of time waiting for his wife to come back from the local Home Depot which was an hour away. And even then she had to call back to find out what she was supposed to get, and which of several versions we needed.

Click to expand...

I'm not supplying everything, just copper tubing, valves, water heater, water filters, and fixtures. The contractor will supply all gas supplies, DWV, fittings, and whatever else he needs to complete the job.

CHH said:

There are always three classes of bidders: the crazies, the rationals, and the whiffs. It doesn't matter what industry or trade.

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I totally agree. I see the same in my trade. Problem with this job is while there are areas that are cut and dry, there are also areas that are not (the relocates with slab on grade). This I suspect is the reason for some of the high bids. They are bidding high because they are unsure of what they might be getting into. Trouble is weeding out the contractors who are bidding high because they are unsure, and those who are just high bidders.

There is also the question of bid high, bill high. I for one do not bill high if the job takes less time & materials than I bid it for.

parts

That makes it worse, because then you are taking the pieces that are the easiest to calculate, but leaving him with the task of figuring out all the parts that connect your stuff together. In other words, you are supplying the cream and leaving him with the curds. If I did the job, I would probably calculate the value of what you are supplying and then add about 25% of that amount to the job as added revenue. As someone told me many, many years ago, "You cannot be successful just selling labor".

Chh

it is like the manager who needed a roof fixed. He contacted one company and got a price of $10,000. When asked how that figure broke down he said, "Fifty percent labor, fifty percent material". He contacted a second company and they wanted $20,000. When asked how the price broke down, he also said, "Fifty/fifty, labor and materials". A third company was called and he gave a price of $30,000. When asked how his price broke down, he said, "$10,000 for me, $10,000 for you, and $10,000 to pay the first guy to do the work."

I think you could get quality without having to buy all that stuff on your own. Can you buy a better quality ball valve than your plumber can get a at a supply house? You can put in your specs things like " bronze full port ball valves. XYZ Brand." On fixtures and faucets, a contractor can give you a bid with an allowance. Meaning for example "lav faucet $50" . Then you can specify later that you want model 'abc' and you pay the difference between the $50 and what that one cost. Yes, the plumber gets to buy some of this stuff at wholesale and put a markup on it.

On the other hand, if you provide the faucet, the water heater, etc. who will provide the LABOR for any needed warranty service? Not the contractor! You will be on your own.

Your semi-blueprint has lots of nice straight lines, no interference from pesky glue lam beams or other real world stuff. An experienced contractor could probably give you an estimate based on these. But I understant why some contractors have apparently been reluctant to bid. Homeowners who are overly involved in specs like this might be a nuisance to deal with. Nothing personal intended here..... I am speculating on what might be the attitude of some plumbers in this situation.

Yes indeed. The specs of the job would indicate the beginning/during/ending experience of why did I take this job...????


Been down this road too many times and the idea is to bid so high that they go looking for someone else. And even if you do get the job and it makes money, the difficulty factor destroys the monetary compensation that goes with it.

I "used" to work for two well known architects in Cincinnati Ohio and having that feather in my cap knowing I was associated with them....was a joke.

They always paid more than the market average and that had me jumping for joy until I figured out why the reasons were that they was doing it.

Constant changes from the original stated specs with no increase in pay/upcharge. If I had to change a spec due to my situation....I was the bad guy. If they did it...there was no hear of a upcharge as this would rewrite the original contract. pffffft!!


Oh and CHH I forgot to add paper towels and foot booties to my material list, additonal charge of 43000.00 ~~!!!

Every little instance along the way I believe they felt was justification to withhold payment until time expired to make sure nothing was going to go wrong in the instance I was already paid.

4 months and that was my tour. They had 4 rather large jobs for me to do when I told them our working relationship is NULL and VOID. If I don't get paid by year's end with your nonsense I'll have mechanical liens on all of your projects. Count on it like warm s.unshine on a summer day.

Would never consider working for You! I'm a ligit. Buss. Man and I mark up Materials to help cover overhead. Usually folks that bid This work are desperate ,for good reason.

RUGGED said:

Oh and CHH I forgot to add paper towels and foot booties to my material list, additonal charge of 43000.00 ~~!!!

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Looks like I need to get in the paper towel and booties supply business too.

On the copper tubing is there an extra stick or to because you don’t want extra fittings?
Will the house be in a total gut job at time of installation?
This is a slab house so if it’s not a gut job then your pipe lengths and where you want them are off.
No insulation on your hot water lines?

I’ll try to get you a bid by Monday if you answer my questions.

Something wrong or fishy.

Kiril said:

.... Does that include all rough in material given we are providing the bulk of the materials ....

... I am not responsible for something failing if they want junk.

Reason why I am providing materials here is I want to ensure material quality is maintained and I can get the stuff from my local supply house for considerably less than list.

Click to expand...

"Less than list" is not a big deal. How can you get better materials at better prices than a professional can?

What makes you think "they want junk"? You can specify quality.

Sure, you can buy some of the stuff and let him have it. This whole "advantage" is meaningless. You have no advantage over a professional.

-david