Hardi board over drywall?

Geniescience · Oct 23, 2007

the BBB is worse than you can imagine. The way they structure the complaint process, every business wins an award for having "resolved" any concern, just by putting anything down in writing about how the client doesn't understand or is wrong. Any written response, and suddenly the business is rewarded and the file gets closed.

move on.

david

Jadnashua · Oct 23, 2007

A clarification...on cbu installation, you only need the special tape on the joints; it has no benefit to the screwheads. It is to add strength to the joints to make the boards more monolithic - to emulate a mud/lath wall. Unless you are going to paint the stuff instead of tiling, then you need to treat the joints and screws differently, since you want it to look pretty. Under the tile, it doesn't matter.

If you need anything, you can copy the installation instructions from the website of the cbu manufacturer. Any contractor should be held to installation to the manufacturer's instructions; anything less is just not professional.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Jimbo · Oct 23, 2007

jadnashua said:
Any contractor should be held to installation to the manufacturer's instructions; anything less is just not professional.

This is an excellent point, since the bottom line in any code section or municipal regualation, is usually a statement that materials must be installed in accordance with instructions of the manufacturer.

HoneySuckle · Oct 23, 2007

Thanks guys. I worried for nothing. He's going to come back and try to fix the problem. I made sure not to sound condescending and critical (every guy is entitled to a mix up, right?), and to tell him how much I appreciated his return call.

He told me that if he uses more screws that should take care of the bowing. Sounds right? I need some specific instructions for what he could do to remedy the problem please. I know you guys gave me some, but if I could get some basic ones that I understand and can relay, that would help. Contractor also said that the problem he encountered was with the tub's lip. That's why he used drywall first on one end and then the hardie board. I asked him why he didn't recess he board and that was his explanation.

Thanks for the support. If I hadn't come and brought my complaint here, I would not have the nerve to approach this man

Frenchie · Oct 23, 2007

HoneySuckle said:
Thanks guys. I worried for nothing. He's going to come back and try to fix the problem. I made sure not to sound condescending and critical (every guy is entitled to a mix up, right?), and to tell him how much I appreciated his return call.

He told me that if he uses more screws that should take care of the bowing. Sounds right? I need some specific instructions for what he could do to remedy the problem please. I know you guys gave me some, but if I could get some basic ones that I understand and can relay, that would help. Contractor also said that the problem he encountered was with the tub's lip. That's why he used drywall first on one end and then the hardie board. I asked him why he didn't recess he board and that was his explanation.

Thanks for the support. If I hadn't come and brought my complaint here, I would not have the nerve to approach this man

I think maybe we've all been a bit too polite in our criticism... you're cutting this guy way too much slack.

Let me clarify: he did a hack job. Crap. Garbage. It's not a mix-up, he's either unqualified or trying to rip you off.

It can't be fixed with a couple of screws, it's way beyond that. He needs to start over, and do it right this time. Period. As it stands, his installation isn't even code-compliant! And it sounds like his remedy'd be no better.

You need to play HARDball with this guy, not nicey-nice. Threaten to complain to the inspectors & get his license pulled. Threaten to sue. Scream. Yell. Whatever it takes.

Whatever you do, DO NOT let him appease you with half-assed repairs to his half-assed job; demand he does it correctly this time.

Okay... now, specifically?

Extra screws won't fix the bow, he needs to take it off, shim out his studs properly, and re-hang it.

Drywall does not belong in a shower, period.

There needs to be a membrane somewhere - either behind the CBU, or surface-applied; if the latter, then your tiler will charge you - who's paying for that?

Get your tiler to specify exactly what they will or won't put up with, and HOLD THIS GUY TO IT. Right now it sounds like you're being set up for another unsatisfactory & non-compliant installation, another round of tiler refusing the job.

Sorry if i sound irate - it's not directed at you, but at him. There's simply no excuse for the work he did.

HoneySuckle · Oct 23, 2007

You sounded perfectly fine to me! His tiler says he can work with this, but what they don't know is that I am NOT going to use his tiler!!

I too felt he should take it all off and shim the studs as you are suggesting, but rather than discuss this over the phone, I wanted him here in front me so I could tell him this. He is planning on using that damn electric gadget to screw that board to hell and back (that sounded bad!! but funny

).

I'm going to follow your advice. Should be fun tomorrow

I had to play nice to get the man on the phone and to agree to fix the problem. I also kind of lied and said that I was passing his name on to both my friends who are remodelling. A girl has got to use every trick in the book with some of these sleazy guys. And this dude was NOT cheap! That bugs me no end.

Geniescience · Oct 23, 2007

being stronger, you will still get beaten. He is a professional at dealing with people who act as you are now acting.

david

Geniescience · Oct 23, 2007

unscrew it yourself and do it right. It is not hard. Start unscrewing it right in front of him.

HoneySuckle · Oct 23, 2007

geniescience said:
2 kinds of fiberglass tape. One is for drywall. One is for alkaline environments. Big difference. A shower is a harsh environment. The expensive tape, alkaline-resistant, is the right thing to use. I believe it is the only product that has been approved by the TCNA. The other tape degrades, falls apart, does not hold the seams together, in the long term. Very few people mention this, anywhere. It is not common knowledge. When you go into a store, many of the "specialist" staff won't know. Even if they read the labels, and understand it all, they may tell you that the cheap one "works too". Yes, it works, initially, as it appears to hold the Hardi panels together, and if some aisle person is all of 22 years old, his sense of time-risk-proper- and all that is not to be trusted, assuming you want the installation to be done right, by standards recognized by industry associations.

Shower water can slide in behind any tile, even thought the grout looks intact and well attached. Also, grout itself is not waterproof, unless it is epoxy based grout. A shower a day keeps the wall moist inside, if there is any small amount of water getting in. Moist = mold grows. Smells bad, makes you sick, infects the whole house sometimes.

"Mud" is a cute word. Let's call it Portland-cement based product. Thinset is one.

"Mud" is a broad term. In drywall, it can refer to "compound".

"Mud" for some people can refer to the product known as mastic, which is an organic based material, not portland cement based. Organic material rots. When put under shower tiles, it is not up to TCNA standards. Mastic is good as a tile setting product, but not in showers.

Anyone can say, that this or that thing they do is a small thing in the big picture, and that what they are doing will work, and that the TCNA has only adopted a few things as the right thing to do....

Whether you use mastic in a shower,
whether you use mastic only on the screw holes,
whether you use the right or wrong fiberglass tape,
these are details, that may make a big difference

Or none at all. But there is no way to know in advance. I have no problem with a touch of mastic on a screw hole. Just don't use mastic to set all your tiles.

Honeysuckle, these are some of the reasons why you will have a hard time with the previous guy. It takes a lot of talk, a lot of explaining, just to say all of the above. Imagine how hard it will be to talk to someone who knows more than you do and won't listen to your new-found knowledge that is still quite limited. If you have already explained all this ten or twenty time before, it gets easy. Today is not a good day to teach the old guy new stuff.

If you unscrew the Hardi, then later when you put the vapor barrier in, you have to ensure that it is long enough to "drip into" the tub flange.

You may have one other option, an alternative to unscrewing it. That is, to paint a liquid trowelable shower membrane on it.

First, we need to see how the Hardi touches the tub edge. The "flange".

david

Here is the a picture of where the hardi board covers the flange.

Geniescience · Oct 24, 2007

I'm with frenchie. It's not a mix-up. 99 to 1 he's trying to rip you off, and he will do so by appearing to be unqualified, at the appropriate time to get off the hook. That means he is very smart.

You already paid him a lot of money, so i can understand all the negative emotions that will produce, for a long time.

david

Cookie · Oct 24, 2007

Knowledge is power

Honeysuckle,

It is a man's world out there and the more you display emotions ( other than slamming down your fist on something and using loud language) you won't get taken seriously. So, you got some options.

One, game playing is out. Trickery will get you nowhere. A real option is to have a man at your house when the professional comes by to take a look at work you need done, or to have a man call first for you. I guess it is too late for this, but do think about it for the future. Unless, you are really skilled in things you need done of some magnitude it is better for you to do this.

Another option for the future, is to learn about what you need done ( maybe by this site alone) before you have any workmen out at the house. Knowledge is power.

Now, since the damage is done it is going to be real hard to get this worker/business to see his errors or want to fix them. If I were you I would do either of 2 things. One, again have a man call him for you. A boyfriend, if not a husband, or your dad or neighbor, maybe even a coworker.

If you can't do that then, draft a letter to him just simply stating you will be taking a legal recourse. But, make no mistake, don't make a threat, let it be the truth and a promise. People in the business world can read between the lines and see a bluff and will blow you off, if so.

You can't be intimidated. It is like waving a red flag.

(and bake cookies

) it works every time...

HoneySuckle · Oct 26, 2007

I didn't do the cookies

The contractor came over and was very willing to listen and redo his work. I was shocked to be honest. He assured me that he works by referrals and the thought that there was more work for him (hell no!) seemed to have baited him back into my kingdom.

The bath install looks so much better now, but I am getting another professional out to examine before committing to tile install. We live and learn.

Good advice Cookie. I will remember to educate myself BEFORE these folks come in to give quotes/work in the future. The other major mistake was paying him before inspecting

I feel stupid. Lesson learned.

Cookie · Oct 26, 2007

Honeysuckle,

Good for you. But, remember honesty is the best policy in business. ( sometimes in romance, lol.)

Cookie

HoneySuckle · Oct 28, 2007

Cookie said:
Honeysuckle,

Good for you. But, remember honesty is the best policy in business. ( sometimes in romance, lol.)

Cookie

I'm back with my tail between my legs. Sure he came back to "fix" his mistake, BUT I had one more tile contractor come by and his verdict is that it looks better than what the pictures were like, but it still has too many flaws

I have two choices. Call back the same incompetent guy and ask him to redo what this tile contractor thinks needs to be done, or PAY this new tile contractor to redo some of the mess.

Problem #1 I didn't know much about. Wrong screws were used (according to new tile contractor) so the heads kind of stick out. These were drywall screws. Tile contractor says this will rust in the long run and could be problematic. He recommends using Rock board Screws. Is this correct? Sounded like it made sense to me.

Problem #2. He believes very strongly that there needed to be some additional support to the back of the wall (joists) and shimming to help alleviate a lesser bow, because the bowing is still there. He told me that it will show once the tiles are set.

The tile contractor was recommended highly, provided references, and came up with some thoughts that others didn't.

P.S. Cookie. I try to be as honest as I can be. It didn't work by getting back in, so I learned a lesson. Best to move on and redo to make this bathroom a success. I need a hug!

Jadnashua · Oct 29, 2007

Drywall screws are okay for drywall, but not in cbu. Yes, there are special hardened, coated screws made especially for cbu (cement board) and they are what is recommended by the manufacturer. Drywall screws are much lighter in gauge (diameter) and don't have the special head designed to countersink them (it has ridges on the back to ream out the hole so it can get flush). Not having them flush is an annoyance, and can happen even with the right screw, but drywall screws will readily rust and would likely break off if they were driven deep enough to try to countersink them.

A bowed wall can be straightened with mortar and the tile, but it is a much harder thing to do than to shim the walls so they are straight beforhand.

Again, read the installation instructions on the Hardi site, and inform the installer you expect it to be done per the manufacturer's instructions, or you won't pay him.

HoneySuckle · Oct 29, 2007

Will do Jim. Thanks.

HoneySuckle · Nov 11, 2007

I did hire the guy that I mentioned, and he redid the Hardi-board with proper screws that don't stick out like a sore thumb. Have to order my tiles.

Can't figure out if 18x18 will be a problem. I'm going with through body porcelain in the bath surround. Is this okay? Or should I stick with 12x12s?

Jadnashua · Nov 12, 2007

Big tile can be used, per area, they weigh the same as smaller tile. If the walls aren't flat, it will be harder to set them properly. One thing that can be done on a wall is to use the spotting method of mortar. Basically, burn a coat of thinset on the wall and on the back of the tile. Then, use golf ball sized globs evenly spaced around the back of the tile. Then, mush it up on the wall. This won't give you 100% coverage, but on a wall is not a big deal, and the globs spread out on the already burned in thin layer and the depth gives you opportunity to get it to lay just so on the wall, getting it even with the other tiles and compensating for irregularities on the wall. If the wall is flat, then just do the normal thing, if it isn't, try this. The installer will nees some shims to keep the tile aligned until the thinset starts to set up. You might want to try some tapered tile spikes...they give a little opportunity to compensate for tile that may not be absolutely perfect. The spacers that are flat mean any error just gets worse the further you go, but with the tapered ones, you can get it perfect.

Geniescience · Nov 12, 2007

ditto. 18"x18" is fine if the guy already knows all this and has a wet saw. Do you know what size grout space you want between tiles?

david

allnewbath · Nov 26, 2007

I've seen installers use different materials including nothing at all. I would not recommend using straight dry wall mud however as it could result in mildew growing behind your finished wall. Where ever you purchased your hardibacker board should be able to also provide the correct mud. Or could simply use stick on dry wall fabric tape and install the tile right over that.

Hardi board over drywall?

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