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Thread: Rough in

  1. #16
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarG
    So there will be a total of 10 ground wires together in a wirenut... 2 from power sources, 4 from switch legs and 4 more pigtails to link to the ground screws on the switches? When would it not be necessary to put a pigtail to each switch (assuming plastic box)?
    404.9 Provisions for General-Use Snap Switches.
    (A) Faceplates. Faceplates provided for snap switches mounted in boxes and other enclosures shall be installed so as to completely cover the opening and, where the switch is flush mounted, seat against the finished surface.
    (B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be effectively grounded and shall provide a means to ground metal faceplates, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered effectively grounded if either of the following conditions is met:
    (1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or to a nonmetallic box with integral means for grounding devices.
    (2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bonding jumper is connected to an equipment grounding termination of the snap switch.

  2. #17
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH
    What is expected in a remodel where the house is already occupied?
    What is being done?

    Any new installations would fall under the same rules as new construction.

    Do you believe that just because it is remodel work it is exempt from inspections?

  3. #18
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    What is being done?

    Any new installations would fall under the same rules as new construction.

    Do you believe that just because it is remodel work it is exempt from inspections?
    Not exempt from inspections, but I was replying to your comment about shutting off the power if anything is connected. If I am moving a water heater from the main to a new subpanel in an occupied house, what is the acceptable process for hooking up the essential circuits. Do I have to rough install the circuits, get them inspected, do the final, and get that inspected, before applying power to the circuits?

    If I am putting in new wire and a 4-terminal receptacle for a range in an existing receptacle box when I put it on the new subpanel am I supposed to install the cable, wait for rough inspection, install the receptacle, and wait for final inspection before I can cook dinner?

  4. #19
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH
    Not exempt from inspections, but I was replying to your comment about shutting off the power if anything is connected. If I am moving a water heater from the main to a new subpanel in an occupied house, what is the acceptable process for hooking up the essential circuits. Do I have to rough install the circuits, get them inspected, do the final, and get that inspected, before applying power to the circuits?

    If I am putting in new wire and a 4-terminal receptacle for a range in an existing receptacle box when I put it on the new subpanel am I supposed to install the cable, wait for rough inspection, install the receptacle, and wait for final inspection before I can cook dinner?
    It would take more time than I am willing to invest to answer your questions above in their entirety. We both know that each installation you have mentioned above and the manner in which it was installed would warrant its own merit for inspection process.

    A very simple rule that most in my area go by is;

    If the wall is open anytime during the remodel process then anything new that will get covered by wall board requires an inspection before the finish wall is installed.
    With either of the two circuits you mentioned above installed in the wall an inspection of these circuits would be required before the wall was covered.
    Should either installation leave the cable exposed for inspection as under a house then the circuit cable would be visible for the entire length but the short run that was fished in the wall.
    Quote Originally Posted by NEC
    300.4(D) Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings, or finished panels for prefabricated buildings where such supporting is impracticable, it shall be permissible to fish the cables between access points.
    334.30(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:
    (1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.
    If the subpanel that you mention in both scenarios is new then the panel would need inspection before being energized.

    Granted a lot of inspectors will give a lot of lead way with remodel installations but the contractor making the installation is carrying a very big liability if the proper procedures are not followed.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob NH
    You need enough volume for equivalent of 21 wires, 42 cubic inches.
    The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

    Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?


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  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member Livin4Real's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbfan74
    The ears have a purpose!
    They pull the device tight against the drywall so the cover will sit flush and you are not using the cover to hold the switch flush.
    And if you snap off the ears the switch will tighten up against the gang box. This is helpful for people who can't leave the power off very long on an extended remodel (like mine), allow you to drywall it without having to pull all the switches back out until inspection. I just used a scrap piece of drywall when setting the depth of the box. The switch is just as tight, if not tighter being flush with the gang box.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by hids2000
    The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

    Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?


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    So I got a hold of the local inspector on the phone and I asked him how many wires can in one hole and he said 3 wires. Later that day I was thinking this does not make sense at all. Can someone please explain it to me?
    Why would the code say you can only have 3 wires per hole without limit the size of the hole? I mean if the hole is 3" in size that is more than enough room for 5 or 6 sets of 14-2 wires why does that cause a problem? I will follow the code and rerun the wire, but I would like to understand the reasoning behind it. It would make more sense if it was the number of wires can only be a % of the hole size.
    Thanks

  8. #23
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

    Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
    Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

    If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

    Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
    Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

    If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.
    Me to and I agree with your other part of the post.

    If these cables were going through the top or bottom plate then I would look at 334.80

    Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are bundled together and pass through wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

    Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
    Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

    If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.
    Speedy Petey thanks for your quick answer. I will follow the 9 CCC per hole. My inspector is an old timer I just don't want any problems so running a new hole next to it and rerun the wire is not a problem. But can you explain the reason why only 9ccc per hole? I still do not understand the reasoning behind it, is it for fire protection? and why doesn't the size of the hole play a factor in how many ccc one can fit inside a hole?

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    310.15(B)(2) Adjustment Factors.
    (a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled longer than 600 mm (24 in.) without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be counted as a current-carrying conductor.

    EDITED TO ADD:

    Yes bundling will cause heat
    Last edited by jwelectric; 09-28-2007 at 08:18 PM.

  12. #27
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Why do the DIY'ers always cut the wires so short?

    That is nothing. A DIY contractor in Battle Creek did his own wiring, and went into one side of the box then straight across and left the other side. After all the drywall and taping was done, he called an electrician to install the devices. The sparky took one look at the job and, after he finished laughing, said he would not even consider it because he would have to crimp splice EVERY wire in the house, and the contractor would not be able to afford him.

  13. #28
    DIY Member Kiril's Avatar
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    Default Inspection question

    Not to hijack the thread, but have a related question. See attached photo and comment on if it will fly with the inspectors as is.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #29
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Where is the wires?

  15. #30
    DIY Member Kiril's Avatar
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    No wires yet, was just curious if boxes in such close proximity to each other would pass inspection without any further fire proofing like putty pads.

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